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MG TD TF 1500 - TD Production Records


BBS friends:
I am beginning to work through newly-acquired copies of all the factory production records (fatory ledgers) for T-series cars, beginninig with TD cars. This was originally part of my work on Mark II cars, but it clearly has a larger usefulness, I now see. It will be a long and arduous proces to sort through everything, but I can answer questions now. This work should enable me to do three important things: to identify individual cars or engines, provide more complete numbers for the truncated engine numbers in the on-line database of production records, and add a bit of detail information. Up until now, trying to search for individual engine numbers or figure out where an engine came from have either been based on valuable lists like George Merson's, or hit-and-miss searches in the on-line production database.

The ledgers were the source of and complement the on-line database which gives information on the cars, including chassis number, engine number and date manufactured. But the factory ledger sheets add information on in-house factory engine replacements and occasional individual notes on cars (supercharged, show cars, etc), which are NOT noted on-line.

So for instance, I can now quickly identify that the TC engine on eBay right now, XPAG 5509, came from TC 5229. I should be able to do the same for pretty much ANY XPAG/XPEG engine, and am happy to offer my help in doing so.

Here's another one - eBay 370552875504 shows an authentic TD and ID plate: TD 15190 and matching engine XPAG/TD2/15759. But confusingly, the on-line database shows engine XPAG/TD2/15653 as the corect engine for this car. This sort of uncertainty as to what is original might well make or break a sale (well, perhaps not for THAT car...). My factory records show that the original engine was indeed 15653, but that it was found to be defective before shipment and was replaced at the factory a few days after manufacture with engine 15759. Almost a month later the original 15653 engine was installed in TD15846, after rectification. This correction was not transferrd from the ledgers to the on-line database

So by going back to the ledgers, I can verify and/or correct the on-line datatbase, which I think is of use to the larger MG community. It may prove possible to make these corrections in the on-line database, as time and work progress.

I must make clear that there is NO information on color, interior, or any detailed delivery information, other than the abbreviated code as shown on-line. That paint and interior information has not survived, as far as I can tell.

Please know that my time is more my two children's than my own, but I will be happy to answer any questions about individual cars. And from time to time I may well post information on interesting details of individual cars, as I learn them.

Please contact me off-line for individual requests.

Tom Lange, Bar Harbor, Maine


t lange

Wow!

Tom may not always be able to reply as quickly as he did to me, but I sent him a message requesting info on my TD's engine and had a reply within the hour!

I would have been happy with a turnaround of a matter of even a few days or more. I guess it being a Sunday has something to do with it, but what a treat to have the information in hand. My car's engine isn't original to it, so now I have a bit more info to add to the car's record.

Thanks, Tom!

BobbyG
Bobby Galvez

Thank you, Bobby. I should add that for the vast majority of TD cars, there are absolutely no notes or further comment in the ledger sheets, other than the chassis #, engine #, date made and export info (sometimes).

Please don't be disappointed if I write you back that there is no further information in the ledger than what is on-line.

Tom Lange
t lange

Tom, it's guy like you, with your hard work and diligence that make life easier for the rest of us.
Keep up the great work.

Cheers.
Barry Ryley
C B Ryley

Tom checked my build record and found that my car was completed 9 Feb 1951, not 2 Feb 1951 as the online record at tregister.org would have had me believe. It was the first of 5 cars built on the 9th.

Thanks for the info, Tom!
Rob Edwards

Perhaps Steve could add a 'comment' or 'notes' box to the online data base and owners could add what you find in the production notes... that would be fabulous.
gblawson(gordon- TD27667)

If you're referring to Steve James, doesn't he maintain ttypes.org, not tregister.org? At ttypes.org, you can edit the car's details (and in fact, I just did that)....
Rob Edwards

Tom, you made me curious.
I thought the factory records on the TD's were lost in some fire that happened long ago.
How come they still seem to excist?
What connects you to these records? Is it your hobby to dive into such history or did you just bump onto them?
Greetings, Huib
Huib Bruijstens

Tom

Folks like you really add to the hobby. Thanks for the work.

We were discussing in another thread the birthday of our cars (a number hit 61 in Sept, Oct and Nov.)Perhaps you can review and see if my calculations are correct.
Bruce Cunha

Herb and all - many of the T-series records were indeed trashed by the company, but the production ledgers with these bare-bones details survived. They are available to be viewed (with considerable hassle, advance notice, etc.) at Graydon, in the UK.

I assume ledgers with interior, paint colors and other details were trashed, but don't know - it's hard to know what has NOT survived, when it is almost impossible to ferret out what HAS! These were considered old cars or no particular note when the MGB came along, so the older records were not considered important enough to archive.

I am a rare book librarian by training, but am now sort of retired, and enjoy working on MGs as I have for more than 40 years. I have particular interest in the TD/C or Mark II cars (I have three right now - 2 cars and a rolling chassis), and have been trying to obtain the factory ledgers in order to pin down how many Mark II's were made (1710 per Clausager, 1685 per the on-line records, which, I can now prove, are definitely in error!). It has been very difficult to get copies of these ledgers, and they have ended up costing me hundreds of dollars in copying charges. But at least I HAVE them in hand, which I really never though I would.

Thanks for the kind words - I'm working through the records and your questions as fast as I can.

Tom Lange
Bar Harbor, Maine
t lange

Tom, THANK YOU. I can't understand why more people have no interest in archiving history. Your efforts are appreciated.
-David
D. Sander

...I will add my thanks Tom as well... all the things you are doing re the data bases will be appreciated for years....
gblawson(gordon- TD27667)

Is this the same D. Sander of Vermont who is presently in the Pole Position of the New England M.G.T Register? Congratulations Dave. Bud #9826
Bud Krueger

All I can say is, Thanks Tom!

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Tom if it wasn't for guys like you with patience and perseverance, we would have no history at all. Often this is taken for granted. Thanks for all of your hard work!

Bill
Bill Brown

Bud,
Not to hijack this thread; but yes, I am happy to report that I am the same David. Thanks for your kind words.
-David
D. Sander

Thanks very much Tom for searching the records for information on my TD.
Really appreciated !

Nick, TD3232
Nick Herwegh

Tom

so how many TDII's were there in your view? The suspense is just too much!

IanB
Ian Bowers

Friends - With the factory ledgers I have done research on about 30 individual cars for owners, and have found some interesting reasons why it is so important to have these production ledgers at hand. I must make clear that for the VAST majority of cars there is no additional information available; I don't want owners to be jazzed about what I can add to their existing knowledge, because I often can add nothing.

But so far I have compared than 30 records, and have found a dosen errors of one sort or another with the on-line database:

1) Wrong engine number in the production records (engine found to be defective at the factory and changed before sale, with the correct number stamped on the ID plate, but with the earlier engine number on-line).
2) Many truncated engine numbers (later numbers beginning with XPAG/TD2/LHX) omitting the final digit
3) Verified that an ID plate with TD/C stamped on it isn't a genuine Mark II, according to the ledgers, and verified that another car with an substituted ID IS a genuine TD/C car, with matching engine
4) Incorrect build dates, off by a month
5) Verified that a number of reported TD/C cars on TD lists are not, in fact, TD/C cars (despite what their TD2 owners say...).
6) Cars where destination or configuration (EXR, etc.) were omitted
7) Cars listed as TD/C on the ledgers, but not noted as such on-line.
8) Verifying that a particular car "said to have come from the factory supercharged" has no such additional information in the ledger (although there was one car that came from the factory supercharged, this one is not it)

There is still a great deal of manual checking to go. With Steve James's help, eventually I hope to be able to supply all corrections to the on-line database.

In the mean time, please feel free to write with questions, and I will be happy to check.

Tom Lange
Bar Harbor, Maine
t lange

Tom.
Thank you for solving my dyslectic problem.

It was indeed TD 10642 I was inquiring about NOT TD 19462.
so the engine number was XPAG/TD2/LHX11057
The final digit, 7, was missing from our and MGCC Records

I think the MGCC T Register data cut off the last digit in the XPAG/TD2/LHXxxxxZ engine numbers because of an error setting of the field size in the data base creation ( it was set to 16 chars wide not 17 as needed)

Keep up the good wprk!!!

Don Harmer
Don Harmer

This thread was discussed between 23/10/2011 and 31/10/2011

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