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MG TD TF 1500 - LED turn signal lights (II)

I started a thread on Jun 30, 2011, about the dashboard turn signal indicator light flashing once only when I activated the turn signal switch. This was after changing the rear 1157 bulbs to LiteZupp LEDs and leaving the front bulbs as their original incandescents.

I thought the problem may be with the incandescent dashboard indicator bulb. To test this theory, I wired an LED in parallel with the incandescent indicator bulb. Both indicator lights behave the same, flashing once when the turn signal switch is activated, and then not again until the timer expires and the turn signal switch is activated again. In other words, the indicator lights don't flash in synchronization with the external front and rear lights.

I'm left to conclude that the flasher isn't able to properly operate the dashboard indicator light when LEDs are installed, although the flasher operates the LEDs in an acceptable manner.

I'm disappointed that my appearance-correct (I believe) Lucas flasher will likely need to be replaced. Does anyone know of a positive ground three terminal flasher that appears correct? Does anyone have a lead on a non-operational period correct Lucas flasher? I'd like to see if I can mount a modern flasher in the Lucas can.

Thanks.

Larry
Larry Shoer

Larry,

You can go to NAPA and get an EL-13 flasher. It will work positive or negative ground. It works with my incandescent bulbs in front, and my LEDs in the rear, and it worked with all incandescents in the past. For the record, I use a piezoelectric buzzer not a light for my indicator, and my LEDs are from Classic Auto LEDs LLC, www.classicautoleds.com.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Dave,

Am I correct that your buzzer pulses on and off all the while your outside turn signal lights are operating (so I have confidence the dashboard indicator light will pulse on and off when wired in)?

I did note in the archives your mention of this flasher. It is a potential candidate (if the size is right) to mount in an old Lucas can, if I can put my hands on one.

Thanks.

Larry
Larry Shoer

Larry, in a word, Yes.

I tested the set up with a light bulb, and that's when I discovered that there are a lot of flashers out there that flash out of sequence, i.e. off when the outer lights are on and vice versa. Since the flasher can is powered that means the buzzer or light would be on all the time except when the turn signal lights were flashed!

Alternatively, you can go with a two pole flasher and two diodes, wiring the buzzer or light to the two turnsignal wires from the relay box, and use the diodes to prevent crossing over to the other set of lights on the car.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Hello Larry,
I have a similar problem with my flasher indicator lamp. (I also have LED from Litezup in the rear) When the flashers on left side are working, the indicatorlamp works well. On the right side as yours. I found that it is a problem of the voltage. If the engine runs and produces higher voltage the indicatorlamp on the right side works also. ( I have fitted an alternator in the original housing)
When I measured the voltage on the fuse after ignition side, there is about 1 Volt less than on the fuse which is always on voltage. I connected the fuses with a wire and the indicator lamp works on both sides.
I would like to change my flasher, but in Germany you can only buy flashers with negativ earth.

Klaus
Klaus Harthof

Dave,

The observations you've made are unexpected. If I understand you correctly, the EL-13 flasher energizes its "P" (Pilot light = indicator light) terminal when the turn signal lights are off and the "P" terminal is NOT energized when the turn signal lights are on. This means the indicator light is on most all the time.

This would be the exact opposite behavior of the OEM Lucas flasher. Does the Lucas flasher really work backwards compared to other flashers?

If the EL-13 operates opposite to the Lucas flasher, another solution would be to use a small relay to reverse the signal to the indicator light.

I'm really trying to identify a simple solution for my own purposes and for others to use, too. I have to believe there is a flasher out there that energizes the indicator light when the turn signal lights flash (and is compatible with a positive ground system). Can anyone identify such a flasher?

Thanks.

Larry
Larry Shoer

Dave, on your conversion, are you set up with positive or negative earth?

thanks Bill
Bill Brown

Larry, Dave,

I changed my flasher 20 years ago for a Tridon HD3, which I believe has been superceded with the HD13.

It was small and inconspicuous and was not polarity-sensitive. Its been working well, but recently is showing the same symptoms as you have describe.

However, I get one flash and that's it. It just doesn't work beyond that. This is a mechanical flasher, and I suspect its its just worn out. Time to replace.

However, Like Klaus, I am seeing a lower voltage on the non-fuse side. Maybe its time to put an alternator into the original generator housing, like Klaus has done!

I notice that Tridon make flashers uniquely for LED operation. See:- http://www.tridon.com.au/products/Product.aspx?SG=8&S=35&G=478&P=104173. Also the mechanical HD13 for example, are available super cheap ($7) at NexTag. See:- http://www.nextag.com/tridon-flashers/stores-html

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A Clark

Larry,

My message wasn't very clear, I guess. The EL-13 works as it is supposed to, like the old Lucas flasher. The whole saga starts in picture 13 of my electrical > electrical restoration chapter of my photo site. It is most 550 type thermal mechanical flasher cans that work backwards from the Lucas type. The EL-13 works with either positive or negative ground. I've installed it on both systmems.

Prior to this I had a Tridon, but it failed waiting in a box for the restoration to be finished. Bob Jeffers was helpful in identifying the problems I encountered.

Bill,

I'm positive ground. There is a section on my photo site called on-going maintenance where I show the new LED lights. Recently I've experienced a one-off failure that the manufacturer has never seen. But they are bending over backwards to figure it out. The only inconvenience has been changing to and fro from the LEDs and the icandescents, demonstrating that the LED installation from the Manufacturer (Classic Auto LEDs, LLC, www.classicautoleds.com 541-619-8335) is truly reversible. They make a model for each style of tailight, the rectangular and the round.

warmly,
Dave

Dave Braun

Thanks Dave. I have positive ground also but with round tail lamps. Are you pleased with the brightness of the stop lights during day time? The fear I have is getting rear ended due to poor visibility.

Bill
Bill Brown

I have the same lights Dave has and they can be seen night or day, very bright and well worth the price.
Tom Maine (TD8105)

Thanks Tom, I will move forward on these. I've been looking at them on the web but wanted feedback before plopping down the money.

Bill
Bill Brown

I installed a NAPA EL-13 flasher to replace my Lucas FL5 12v 42W flasher in my positive ground TD. The wiring was straightforward (Lucas -> NAPA: L -> L, P -> P, and B -> X).

The turn signals do not light or flash. The dashboard light glows steadily, although I do not believe at full intensity. I confirmed 12 volts at the X terminal.

The person at NAPA mentioned to me that her customers have had mixed success getting the EL-13 flasher to work with LEDs. Add in the positive ground of my TD and the problem may not be a surprise.

The primary difference between Dave Braun's configuration and mine would appear to be the different LEDs which are used, as I'm running with LiteZupp units in the rear.

The LiteZupp website suggests the use of a NAPA EL-13L flahser (where the "L in the product number specifically indicates that the flasher is designed for LED lights). NAPA appears no longer to carry the EL-13L. Also unanswered is whether the EL-13L flasher will work with a positive ground car.

I'm still after a flasher that will work with LiteZupp LEDs and a car with positive ground. I don't think I'm alone.

Larry
Larry Shoer

I have converted my TC (positive ground) to LED sig/and rear lights. Used a Tridon ELECTRONIC Flasher. No problem. My understanding is that LEDs typically do not generate enough amperage draw to make a mechanical flasher cycle. Also, I am told that electronic flashers are NOT polarity sensitive. Also, I understand that LEDs commonly require a resistor or some such bit on their incoming side, so you can"t simply reverse incoming polarity. So there!
L.A. Leclerc

The NAPA EL-13 is an electronic flasher. It is quite possible the single light LiteZupp LEDs do not draw as much current as the many light Classic Auto LED units. I wonder if too low current through the EL-13 could prevent it from operating properly properly.

Further compounding the problem, I reinstalled the original Lucas FL5 12v 42W flasher and the left side turn signal lights did not work. After doing some troubleshooting, I isolated the problem to the turn signal relay box. Removal of the relay box, cleaning relay contacts, and adjusting the contact air gaps (which were way out-of-spec) solved the problem. I don't think the gaps had been adjusted since the unit left the factory.

With the peak autumn driving season right on our doorstep, I'm going to wait until end-of-driving season before I dive back into this problem.

Larry

Larry Shoer

This thread was discussed between 14/09/2011 and 04/10/2011

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