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MG TD TF 1500 - Carl Cederstrands Book

Just bought Carl Cederstrands book/papers from Moss, it's not a book, it's 40 pages of papers stapled in one corner, which makes no difference, I just like things made perfectly clear.
The information is a little cloudy in some areas, I'll have to read it more than once. I can see where the task of making the change using this guide would be very hard to impossible for some with limited mechanical experience. To make some of the precision jigs you need access to a machine shop and a lathe. This is not a job for the timid or for someone who doesn't want to spend a month experimenting with their final drive and hoping that all turns out well. It's all over if it doesn't! If all doesn't turn out right, it'll cost a bundle to fix the problem. Unless I missed it, it said nothing about dye checking the gears mesh. This is something we always did years ago when building up a race car final drive. If those gears don't mesh exactly right, the rear will growl or sing, very annoying. I can see where it would be a club effort with more than one mind at work. We'll see one this end, I have to read more. Later, PJ
Paul Jennings

Paul... my feelings exactly when I got the 'book'... I read it a dozen times....then I took a highlighter and actually highlighted the info pertaining to the specific 'change'... very small area and very poorly stated...
I took the rear end to Bob Grunau and handed over a bunch of money!
gblawson(gordon)

I read mine a dozen "more" tymes "after" giving my rear end to Dave Zyp. Thought I was just stupid.
Glad I let Dave do mine.
David Sheward

The way I see it is, it'll take more time and effort to make the special tools needed to do the job. Once you spend all that time making the tools and the job is done, you'll at least have something to look at while their collecting dust on the shelf. In my opinion, it's not worth the aggravation for a one time project. Thing is, around here in the swamp country of SC, there's no one to do the change that I know of. Maybe over by Columbia. I'll more than likely wind up doing the job myself, even though I'd rather pay someone else to do it. PJ
Paul Jennings

Paul - I guess that I have been around T series MGs for too long to have given a second thought about Carl's booklet. I have never found it necessary to go to a different rear axle ratio, so I never purchased the booklet myself, but I read the original write up that Carl did in the newsletter of the Vintage MG Club of Southern California and it was really beyond my comprehension since I am not a machinist. One has to also take into account that Carl was a physics professor at one of the colleges in Southern California and a self taught machinist. While many other people did the conversion before him, Carl being a prolific writer of technical articles was the first (and to my knowledge only) one to take the time to write a procedure for doing the modification. From what I gather, someone with a good knowledge of auto mechanics, like yourself is able to fill in the blanks and turn out a good final product from the instructions that Carl wrote.

It might be a good idea (and a great help to future T series owners) if someone like you or Bob Grunau, with a good understanding of the machine work required, got together with Carl and came up with an addendum to the booklet to fill in the missing or unclear information in the booklet. Just be aware that Carl is in his 80s (if not older) and will talk your ear off (and is so interesting to listen to, that you will not notice the passage of time). Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

Gentlemen,

I too have read Carl's book many times and like other techanical documents, sometimes it takes a few passes to sink in. Carl's book makes a few assumptions, that you are reasonably mechanically inclined, have access to a machine shop and a quaninty of patience. To tackle the job yourself is not for the faint of heart. However if you are comfortable overhauling your engine or trans, there is no reason why you cannot do the ring and pinion change yourself. The tools outlined in the book are not absolutely necessary, but will make your life a lot easier particually if you ever choose to do another T axle. I made some of the tools (the bearing tool is highly recomended) but not all of them. To date I have done 25-50 conversions with no problems. Since I did my first, I have purchased the factory tools listed in the Workshop Manual at a swapmeet, but still I use some of Carls as well. Carls book lists more than one method to do the conversion, but I think his is the best. Paul, your post sounds a bit like a "Whinge" and I think you would be well advised to entrust your conversion to someone else. To drive a T-type at highway speed without the nagging thought in the back of your mind that you are rapidly wearing the trusty XPAG out, is worth more than the cost of having it professionally done. Dave Z. and others will happily ship the converted axle to you.

Ciao, Ben T.
Benito Travato

I second what Ben says. A local small machine shop that also sets up race car rear ends did most of my gear change, with my assistance. In fact for a couple years, every time I stopped by they would always ask me how my rear end was doing! You can make the long "fork" tool out of PVC pipe, etc., and any shop will have most of the rest (dial indicators, bearing pullers, etc). Even with my pretty well equiped home workshop, no chance whatsoever I could have done it by myself without buying or borrowing a bunch of tools. While successful, it took us a really long time to do the conversion. I would really suggest sending it to someone who does a bunch of them. Don Harmer and the club in Atlanta have done a bunch- contact Don and ask him when the club is doing another batch. The only failure I found in the book is that parts of it are useless if using the Moss 4.55 gears, as they have no markings on them (or at least did not a few years ago). George
George Butz

I've had the pleasure of visiting Carl while out in So. Cal. He is an absolutely fascinating person to chat with, especially on things MG. Precision is very important to Carl, but he's also a very practical sort. He and I share a knowledge of using porpoise jaw oil as a lubricant. He uses it on chronometric instruments (early speedometers and tachometers), I in clocks with wooden gears. Carl reminds me of the saying that "... getting an education at MIT is like getting a drink of water out of a fire hose."

The thread at http://www.ttalk.info/RearEndConversion.htm that leads to the SE MGTRegister site should show an example of what can be accomplished by condensing Carl's information.

Bud Krueger
Bud Krueger

The PDF is very very good... i don't remember the 'booklet' from Moss having much of this amount of info in it...?
gblawson(gordon)

Carl Cederstrands book outlines several procedures for positioning the pinion gear head to get it exactly to factory specs. taking into account wear on the components as well factory discrepancies from one gear set to another. This is a somewhat involved process and requires a number of accurate measurements using factory tools or accurately home made ones. The SE MG TRegister set of instructions does away with this relatively difficult measuring process by making use of a method that more or less averages out the variations in pinion head heights and requires only the thinning of one spacer washer to set the pinion height. After the pinion has been set at the correct height the rest of the interchange is straightforward.
In my copy of Carl's book there is a description of using the dye method to check for mesh.
Hugh Pite Sidney, B.C., Canada
H.D. Pite

paul, perhaps you have seen the atlanta chapters file on doing the ring/pinion change. if you have disregard this post. if you have not seen it, it distills carls 'book' down to the point they do this as a weekend club event. they have done over 50 of these. i used it on my car. pretty straight forward. the only machining you need to have done is the pinion washer/spacer. a shop did my washer/spacer for 15 bucks. regards, tom
tom peterson

Tom, Using Carls book along with the Atlanta clubs report, the conversion is straight forward. The Atlanta report smooths over some of Carls high tech instructions and makes the conversion a lot easier to understand without having a degree in physics. Like I said before, opening up a rear is no stranger to me, as we did some weird things to modify rears in race cars, but that was a little more than a year or two ago. (Grin)!
Paul Jennings

This thread was discussed between 29/05/2010 and 31/05/2010

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