British-Cars.org

Welcome to the DMR Site for British Car Information.

Recommendations

Parts

MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG TD TF 1500 - Aluminum Filter Housing

Earlier I started a thread about the high price of replacement filter elements for these housings (see picture). Moss wants $65 for the elements.

While everyone pretty much recommended to swap to a spin-on conversion, I was loathe to throw out the one I had. It was pretty expensive when I bought it and I spent a lot of time polishing this one up. Plus, I think it looks better than the spin-ons.

Coincidently, newer cars are now going back to cartridge designs rather than spin-on. My MINI has a cartridge, as does the wife's Toyota Highlander.

So, I went through a filter manufacturer's website looking at the dimensions of all the cartridge filters they had, in the hopes of finding one that fit the housing.

They come in all shapes and sizes. The one that came with the adaptor originally looks much like some of the diesel filters now in use.

See next post for my solution.

David Littlefield

I finally settled on the cartridge that I put into the wife's 2008 Toyota Highlander recently. I chose this one for several reasons:

1) While there were others that were a bit longer and might fit the housing better, this one is very common and used in several Toyota cars, so I could find it in any parts store. IIRC, this one was less than $7.

2) The O-ring that comes with it fits the filter housing EXACTLY. So you get a new o-ring with every filter!

3) The top and bottom of the filter are completely sealed, which makes it operate well with the design of the housing.

Just a matter of fate, although I didn't choose it for this, the size of the opening through the filter is centered perfectly in the top of the housing. Also, the plastic plug that comes with it can be easily modified for the bottom. See next post for installation.

David Littlefield

To install the cartridge I cut and drilled the plastic plug so it fit over the center tube in the housing. The tube is 5/8" outside diameter.

The cartridge is too short to fit the housing. Therefore, I cut a piece of 5/8" to 2 1/8" long and slipped in over the tube to hold the filter in place and to seal it so the oil would go through the filter.

The one concern I have with this setup is whether the heater hose would be affected by the oil. My preference is to use a piece of aluminum bar drilled for the tube as a spacer, but that's not something I have to hand. Any thoughts?

David Littlefield

Possible a piece of PVC pipe in place of the heater hose - hot water type. ?

Dallas Congleton

I would suggest a piece of copper or PVC pipe. The heater hose will get soft inside with the detergent oil running through it at high temp. Also make sure the extension is sealed with an oil proof gasket at both ends. Remember the oil is going thru there at 40 PSI and will leak past and not be filtered.
l michel

Great suggestions, thanks!

I think I'll go with the PVC if I can't find anything metal that will work easily. I think copper would be too thin to provide a seat for the filter. Maybe I can come up with a couple of nitrile washers for gaskets.

Thanks again...

David
David Littlefield

Yikes, great to save $, but since a rebuild costs $5K, no way in the world I would put heater hose or PVC pipe in my oil system. No telling what temperature or oil/chemicals will do to it, as well as who knows how well it seals, etc. Great for a HS science fair project (similar to daughter's on water filtration), but not an expensive engine. No criticism and I admire the ingenuity, just don't think a great idea. Also, I despise the cartridge designs- changed filter on daugher's Mazda, the "correct" size cartidge wrench slipped, had to use chain wrench, damaged the cartridge housing, then you have to screw around with the cartrige and some other messy stuff. And I need to buy a new cartridge end cap. Back to the 50s in my opinion. George
George Butz

2cd George
Tom Maine (TD8105)

Mmm, yeah, maybe the PVC isn't such a good idea. I think I'm going to experiment with a couple of small pipe nipples that might do the trick.
David Littlefield

i put my 2 cents in here with tom and george.. you cannot afford 15 CENTS per day to protect the engine??? really??? seriously?? 15 cents per day??? if you buy a cup of coffee each day you are spending 20 times that much at starbucks.... every day.
are you sure this doesn't come under the penny wise and pound foolish category? regards, tom
tom peterson

I think you've missed the point entirely. This isn't about being cheap. This is about modifying an obsolete piece of equipment and making it work with modern materials.I find it an interesting challenge. For many of us this is the basis of our hobby, not check-writing solutions.

Sure, I could just write checks to other people, justify them by dividing them all by 365 and saying it is only a few cents per day (which is a silly way to make financial decisions, BTW). But where would be the challenge in that?

When I started this thread it was with two goals in mind:

1. To come up with a reasonable, repeatable solution to a mechanical problem. I was soliciting input from the bbs community to help me figure out what would work. I think, with the exception of the two Toms, I got some useful feedback, and I thank those folks for that.

2. I know from my prior thread that there are a number of people (all cheapskates i suppose) with these things sitting on shelves that refuse to pay $65 for the elements. I'll note also that those elements have not been available at any price at certain points and there is no guaranty they will be available at any price in the future. I thought I could help prevent these items becoming expensive throwaways for others as well as myself.

If I can't make this work in a reasonable fashion, then I'll go the spin-on adaptor route. In the meantime, if you continue to feel unable to make a positive contribution, I invite you to not post in this thread.
David Littlefield

I still have some older equipment with cartridge type filters. Although I despise them, cartridges are inexpensive and converting isn't worth it.

Most, if not all, seal the cartridge with a spring and large diameter washers that fit closely on the center bolt. The use of a spring rather than a fixed length of pipe would account for manufacturing tolerances between cartridges, especially different brands.

I think your solution has merit. Using a good paper filter with a method to get most of the oil to pass from the outside - in is what it's all about!

Where is the bypass in that filter? No matter how much filter area there is, a certain amount of oil will bypass when it's cold.
JE Carroll

If I understand it right, the pipe/hose or whatever just holds the modern filter up off of the bottom of the housing so it seals at the top? What about using a piece of aluminum tubing with some "feet" welded on it that would securely fit in the bottom of the housing so nothing could slip. That would be a good permanent modification. George
George Butz

Thanks, JE. Your post prompted me to look at my parts manual for my Jag E-type, which still has its original cartridge filter, and the Moss catalog for my MGA, which I converted to a spin-on many years ago.

Both incorporate springs, as you suggest, although the modern MINI unit and the Toyota do not. I think the idea of a spring has a lot of merit in this instance. However, finding the exact length, diameter and strength of spring necessary may be difficult. Perhaps some combination of (metal) spacer and spring might do the trick.

This filter does not have an internal bypass. The bypass is incorporated in the oil pump design. It seems I read about some people having trouble with the spin-on adaptors due to using filters incorporating a bypass?

Thanks again for your post, JE, great input!
David Littlefield

George, that is essentially the issue, although the bottom of the filter needs sealing, as well.

I have no facility to weld aluminum, although I could do it in steel with my MIG welder. Maybe I could weld a washer on either or both ends of a steel tube for the purpose, assuming I can't find a tube that would fit the diameter perfectly.

Frankly, if I had a lathe and some aluminum bar stock I would have spun up a spacer out of that and been done with it. As it is, I'm trying to do this with stuff off-the-shelf from the hardware and autoparts stores so the solution is easily repeatable.

For example, yesterday I found some suitable washers at Autozone. They are for sump drain plugs, so should work well here.
David Littlefield

david, i did not intend to offend. i sometimes can start down a path and it can take someone else to call my attention to the fact that i have lost sight of the real value. if your goal is to find a creative way to modify your vehicle and believe the risk you are assuming is worthwhile...then i missed the mark with my comment. my apologies.

in regards to your second post where your listed your stated goals...
"1. To come up with a reasonable, repeatable solution to a mechanical problem. I was soliciting input from the bbs community to help me figure out what would work. I think, with the exception of the two Toms, I got some useful feedback, and I thank those folks for that."

here is the quote from the start of this thread. i do not read anything mechanical here. i read financial..so my reply was financial.

"Earlier I started a thread about the high price of replacement filter elements for these housings (see picture). Moss wants $65 for the elements."

i do not believe that looking at the actual out of pocket cost per year (or day)in maintaining your car is silly, but i respect your opinion that it may be.

best of luck with your project. regards, tom
tom peterson

David,

In the time I have been monitoring and contributing to this forum I have never read any contribution to a thread that has not been in the best interest of the threadee or threador. The two Toms in my humble opinion were just trying to ensure that you are not going to trash your engine causing a great amount of gnashing of teeth and outflow of cash.

Flaming someone who has your best interests in mind is not productive and frankly rather rude. Please accept this criticism in a positive way.

Happy New Year to All.

Jim
James Neel TD28423

I'm with James. Amen!

And a happy new year to all...

Jasper

Jasper L Nederhoed

Dave, just a thought. Maybe a conical type spring similarly used for the gear shift anti-rattle would work. It's strong enough to hold the filter in place and it's about 3 inches long. The smaller end should accept the shaft and bolt without shifting on you. Just a thought.
Keith Yarbrough(TD1558)

Tom,

Apology accepted and I extend mine to you if my response was harsh.

By way of explanation, I (mis)interpreted the prodigious use of question marks, shouting (all caps), phrases like "if you can't afford", and the "really???seriously???" stuff rather patronizing and insulting. I understand now that was not your intent and that you were just trying to make a point, and I was just being thin-skinned.

Now, hopefully that is the end of that and we can stay on topic.

David Littlefield

Nothing personnel intended, but just an old diesel guys views on the subject. Much caution has to be observed when using an alternate type oil filter, especially those designed for diesel applications. It isn't as much as the size, but of the porosity of the filtering material. Using that train of thought, I always try to use the engine manufactures recommendations. I agree that with today's improved technology of oil filter manufacturing, such as spin on conversions etc, works very well, but a $6,000, (cost of major rebuild), engine is really no place to cut corners, by using (some) sub standard filters. Big choices out there, hope all make the right ones. JMHO. PJ
P Jennings

I have seen screw ons that look just like the cartridge ones. Dont know who makes em but it is an option. the one I have seen has a screw on filter and the cartridge exterior goes right over that. I could not tell it was not original. May have been custom made or one from the old days.
Tom Maine (TD8105)

Try Brown & Gammons...they have the conversions and the filter elements. http://www.ukmgparts.com/browse.aspx?CID=fa7d90fa-a5e3-4200-8ef2-bfe88a81db74&SID=9d2670aa-6f80-4928-b710-5ca1889162aa
Gene Gillam

Dave, thanks for doing the research on this problem. I have thought for sometime there must be a way around this if one simply put some thought into it. Like you, I could afford the new part, but the idea of solving a problem appeals to me. Keep posting on this. Paul.
P.W. Lester

Thanks for the encouragement, P.W. I've not given up. As a matter of fact, I today discovered that the springs and washers on the rocker arm are a perfect fit for the interior tube. I'm waiting on some parts to test them and I'm still looking for the "right" spacer.

BTW, Keith, thanks for the suggestion to use the anti-rattle spring. I don't have ready access to one without doing some disassembly on a transmission though. I might yet try it if some of these other things don't pan out.
David Littlefield

David, I commend you trying to use common hardware store parts for you conversion. I have found hardware stores lacking in hardware of late. Industrial supply stores seem to have a better inventory of readily available springs and spacers ( common to industry), and are a great resource for machine shops and the like. Another I have used are suppliers to the hydraulic industry. Parts are rated and parts would be available to withstand all types of oil.

Just a thought. Persevere.
C.R. Tyrell

David, I had an extra spring that I bought a few years ago. The filter that you refer to measures just under 7 inches. The anti rattle spring is conical in shape. It measures 2 inches in length. The wider of the two openings measures 1 7/16 inches OD and the smaller measures 1 inch OD. I admire your tenacity in finding a suitable, cheaper replacement. I tried the same road last year but didn't get as far as you have in just finding a filter that would fit. I ended up going to Butch Taras for a spin-on that I'm very happy with. Good luck. I'll be anxious to hear the outcome.
Keith Yarbrough(TD1558)

Thanks, Keith. Unfortunately, due to circumstances beyond my control, I am going to have to move back to Texas soon. I just moved here from Houston about 18 months ago, but the company I worked for is being acquired and I need to move back for another position.

This means the project and the TD restoration have to go on hold (again) and moved (again). It will probably be a good six months or so before I can even think about restarting it.

When I do I will be sure to post the results here.
David Littlefield

This thread was discussed between 29/12/2011 and 13/01/2012

MG TD TF 1500 index

This thread is from the archives. Join this live forum now