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MG MG Y Type - YA Dashboard Veneer

Can anyone tell me what type of wood was used to veneer that part of the dash which carries the instrument panel and glove box lid (which are rosewood, I believe)
Thanks

TonyK
A B Knowles

Hi Tony

Book matched Walnut - also used on the window cappings and side frames of the windshield.

If you want to DIY it - check out the Hints and Tips page, there is a link there to an article written by David Hague on veneering.

PAul
Paul Barrow

Ooops - my apologies Tony! Knew it was somewhere - it was actually in the Reprinted Articles, so I have also added a link to David Hague's piece on veneering now to the Hints and Tips page too!

Paul
Paul Barrow

Forgot to add, if you check out the Colour Schemes page under Technical Centre, you will find details there of the original wood too ... but not how to do it.

Paul
Paul Barrow

I am in the same situation having constructed a new dash from aircraft quality beech ply and now need to veneer it. I was told the veneer is expensive burr walnut which is a bit tricky to apply and even more difficult to french polish. It seems two pieces meet in the centre and need to mirror the grain either side. So in my case I think a professional touch is needed unless I can get some instruction.

As a footnote the dash I made up is of two thin [6mm]panels glued back to back so any warping is cancelled out by the opposite panel, also the routing on the back face for the instruments to sit snuggly in can be cut out simply on the rear panel before the two panels are joined. It all takes time though!
B Mellem

Brian

Hope you never have a short on the wiring ... or an over heat. If you do it could smoulder nicely inside the wood there and the first you would know would be that you didnt need a heater any more! Personally I wouldn't recommend that. Also you would have to make sure you wired through with a new harness ... even then a fault is not ruled out.

Hopefully all the instructions one would need on the veneering are in David's notes. I have never done it ... but they seem comprehensive enough.

Paul
Paul Barrow

Sorry Paul I have missed your point. On the instrument sub dash panel the switch fixing nuts and instruments are recessed into the wooden panel so that the mounting plate fits flush behind, also the instrument bezal tangs are not long enough to reach right through the full thickness of the panel. As for fires I would have thought that all wiring looms should be replaced by now. When I first inspected the wiring on my ex Californian TF one tap and a shower of insulation fell off. I do like fuses! One point is that if the wooden dash catches fire at least it won't drip molten burning plastic on ones lap.
B Mellem

That conjusres up the smell of Christmas in Central Park-'Chestnuts roasting by an open fire'
S.R. Barrow

Thanks Paul, Brian
Yes, the instrument panel & glovebox lid are veneered in wallnut (why I put 'rosewood', I don't know!), but it is the long panel going across the whole width of the car, holding these and fixed by two large chrome plated screws at each end to which I refer. This is of half inch ply, veneered with a much lighter, longer open grained wood. I think it may well be beech (www selectveneers.com shows lots of samples.)
This piece has completely delaminated and broken away at its RH end and at the 'loop' over the steering column, hence its necessary replacement.
Tony
A B Knowles

Tony

Please look at the Woodwork section of the Colour Schemes in the Technical Centre at www.mgytypes.org.

It says quite clearly there "Dash Y and YB. Natural finish Plywood but with walnut veneer on glovebox lid and instrument panel surround which are book matched one to the other." in other words the main panel was not veneered.

Some owners have "modified" and "upgraded" their dash borads to walnut veneer ... but this is not correct to standard stock.

Does this clarify the situation for you?

Paul
Paul Barrow

Hi Paul,
I did look at 'Woodwork' when you first suggested it & thought 'Well mine's not like that, it's definitely veneered with a very light coloured wood 'cos its delaminted so I can actually see it - and on both sides too'
So I have just had a look at a scrap of contemporary ply, nothing special, the sort builders use - & would you believe it, that's just the same! - it has very thin <<1mm finishing "veneers"!! on both sides.
(A bit slow these days I know, but I get there in the end!)
One final thought - UK ply now is often a sort of pinkish colour. Apart from any other considerations, I dont think it would be a very good match with the wallnut!
TonyK
A B Knowles

What do you make of this picture from a 1948 owners handbook?

B Mellem

Tony

If you want an easy solution then I have a friend, an ex-YA owner in the Netherlands restored a dashboard using walnut veneer from Italy. He no longer has the car but still has the dashboard, which was never fitted,which I am sure he would be prepared to sell.

If you are interested please e-mail me and I will put you in touch with him.

Regards.

David
prman@mgytypes.org
David Pelham

What is the correct thickness in inches of the new veneer?
Thanks,
Scott
S.R. Barrow

Hi Brian

You raise a very interesting point, however, it is well known that the "photographs used in the handbook were not taken from production cars. Firstly, since they hadnt produced any before the first printing - how could they have photographed them? In the days of such low production they did not have the luxury of having a couple of months' inventory on hand before they printed the book. Secondly, the famous MG pedal rubbers were never available. The third proof that this is not a production car is the key. Y Types had two keys - one for the ignition and doors, one for the boot/trunk lock (or that might have been one for the ignition, one for the boot/trunk lock and doors, I cant remember which way round it was).

The same lack of "reality" can be found on page 58 of the handbook with the photograph of the cut away carburettor and the fact that the jet lever turns upward ... but in actuality, the lever is downward. Although many of the other component pictures are from "real" parts.

The fact that the main board was also in ply is stated in David Lawerence's book "Let there be Ys" I beleive.

Regards

Paul
Paul Barrow

Thanks for all those comments gentlemen.
I'd put money on the H'book picture being a drawing rather than a photo - with lots of artistic licence!

To answer Scott's query, I'll call this 'ply outer skin' rather than 'veneer' as I seem to have caused a bit of confusion before.
The ply outer skins on the original YA dash are
1/32 inch and on currently produced UK ply, 1/64 inch.
These are approx measurements. Although taken with a micrometer I get slightly different readings from place to place (as one would expect for wood!) & I have got these figures as nearest by converting from the metric. They are very close actually.

The outer skins on current UK ply look quite different from those used 60 years ago. Now they are usually pinkish/red in colour and extremely close grained - unsuitable I think as straight replacement.

I will email David

TonyK
A B Knowles

I am not convinced that MG would have skimped on a bit of veneer leaving a surface of rubbish beech on a car that in modern money cost some £40,000. When I purchased my YA in 1960 the dash was of the same texture overall. As for the keys, the same MRN.. fitted all the locks on my car. So we are left with the supposition that along the 60 year history that modifications and adaptions were carried out. Although I purchased my car 11 years after manufacture it must have been as near to original as possible except for the MOWOG exchange engine.
B Mellem

Each to their own Brian - I merely am quoting to you what is the best known facts concerning the matter as provided in Let there be Ys and other sources of repute. I accept that perhaps there may only have been one key though. What one also has to bear in mind is that the car was the first "new" (as opposed to warmed over TBs) car for MG under strict rationing - cost cutting and control would have been very much the order of the day even if perhaps the original intent had been to provide a full veneered dash.

Another example though of skimping is the fact that the handbook clearly shows a heat shield fitted to the carburettor on page 59, however no such part was ever made for production vehicles.

The handbook therefore is perhaps not quite as reliable a source of information as one might hope. FOr the record, I have a wide selection of different editions of the handbook here - the earliest being one of the first edition print runs of 1947. Fortunately in those days there was also no "Trades Description" legislation though either!

Paul Barrow

I've really set the cat amongst the pigeons here, havn't I?!!
Didn't mean to, honest.
Brian's assumption is right. With all the different comments, I seem to have taken my eye off the ball:-
That transverse piece holding the Instrument Panel & Glovebox Lid IS veneered; On my car it is anyway.
When I find out what wood it is, I'll post it.
And:- one key fits all.

Looking at that 1948 h'book drawing again, an all walnut dash would have looked a bit too much. By making the surround from a lighter coloured wood they got it just about right, I think.

TonyK
A B Knowles

A couple of years ago Peter Arnell & I had a good look at the first YB which is now in Kent owned by Mr Vickers. We took a few photo's, one of which shows the instrument panel/dashboard. One picture shows a panel which outside of the glove box lid and instrument panel looks veneered. But as someone has said it may be a good standard top surface to the ply just about equal to the veneer. The picture can be seen on the Y Register website under "The first YB" or I think "Interesting Y's".
T Gardner

Ted is 100% right, this picture shows a nicely finished piece of ply, albeit stained to a walnut finish, then laquored. This would have been the standard finish as it left the factory ... in my humble opinion at least.

Paul Barrow

Another shot is also shown

Paul Barrow

I think that the photos of the first YB are misleading and believe the dash shown does not conform to the original. Where is the 'burr walnut' veneer on the two panels? The burr walnut is clear to see on the windscreen rail and is nothing like that on the instrument panel and the glovebox, as it should be.
My original dashboard had burr walnut panels as everyone has so far agreed and the remainder was certainly veneered in a lighter coloured wood, just as Brian and Tony have suggested This wasn't a simple surface finish it was definitely a veneer and I well remember peeling and sanding it off before beginning the dashboard restoration. At the time when I was restoring my car I too was unable to find out the identity of this veneer and consequently covered the whole surface in burr walnut.

Jack
J.L. Murray

I think the plain part is veneered, when I redid my definitely original dashboard (see link below) someone mentioned mahogany as the posible wood used for that veneer. On Magnettes the same combination of mahogany and walnut is used?

http://home.wanadoo.nl/vdveery5888/dashboardy5888.html
W. van der Veer

nice link with 'veneer descriptions'

http://www.bosendorferlasvegas.com/build-your-own-piano/
W. van der Veer

I am resurrecting this old chestnut because currently on eBay there is a dash that was take from an early YA and this I believe answers the question totally as this car was a University Motors car.

I am attaching a picture.

As can be seen, although water damaged at the right hand end, the overall effect of the lighter colored ply against the walnut veneer juxtaposesses really well.

Still, it is up to each owner to make their own call. I personally think David Lawrence is 100% correct as his research supports my own findings too.

Whatever you do though - enjoy driving your Y - that is the most important thing!

Paul

Paul Barrow

I too believe the image previously shown clears up the question of dashboard finish and positively shows that two veneers were used.

The water damage on the right hand side shows that the surface veneer has gone, exposing the rough grained plywood that the dash is made from.

This area bears no resemblance to the rest of the outer dash panel which, to my mind, is close grained, of a lighter colour and is a veneer.

Jack
J.L. Murray

Can anyone suggest a supplier of bur walnut [in UK]. So far what I have seen on offer were examples of a rather coarse pattern unsuitable for the small dashboard area. Bryan
B Mellem

I goggled Burr Walnut Veneer and came up with several but http://www.woodveneeruk.co.uk/ looks very promising.

Paul
Paul Barrow

I should read the Safety Fast, since in this month's edition page 41 what do I find but an article on veneering! Those Triple-M boys have got it all sorted.

B Mellem

I got my veneers from Reif & Son Ltd, Atlantic Street, Altrincham WA14 5DD. Tel 0161 927 9192 They are local to me - I don't think they do mail order as they seem to be more wholesale than retail. However, visit them, show them what you want and they are more than happy to make suggestions & help you choose from their stock.
I started this chain trying to establish the nature of the veneer on that part of the dash carrying the walnut intrument panel & glove box lid. I am fairly certain now that it is Mahogany. However there are many different types and after 60 years or so what type was used is anyone's guess.
Members of the Originality Police should read no further.
So, after some discussion with Reifs, I chose to reveneer this piece with American Red Oak. After finishing with a laquer spray, this is coming up somewhat lighter than the weathered original, but is proving to be an excellent foil to the walnut panels.

As it is a long way from S. Glamorgan to Altrincham, if Bryan would like to email me, I may be able to help him with the Burr Walnut.

TonyK
A B Knowles

This thread was discussed between 26/07/2009 and 18/10/2009

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