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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - still struggling with front end - steering links?

Hi all,
I finally had time to try installing all of my new front end parts yesterday (worked 12 hours until it was too late and I had to stop).

I have run into many problems. Cork fulcrum pin seals from Winner's Circle were jumk (come apart too easily). I ordered some from Moss and they worked ok (not perfect shape but did not fall apart yet).

One Winner's Circle kingpin has a hole for the set pin that is too large. I don't see how this can be fixed other than changing the kingpin or custom making a new set pin. The pin drives in so far before it sticks that the shoulder comes out the other side. After trying to grind a new flat on a new side of the old one I gave up and left this situation for now. I have concluded that the main purpose for this pin is to keep the fulcrum pin from unscrewing (not a lot to do with keeping the joint tight).

I decide that the Winners Circle plastic bearings (grease impregnated). They fit to tightly such that it was not possible to force them in far enough to install anything. I tried to force them in with a vice but they just kept popping out. Then they got stuck half way in. It took me 30 minutes to get it out and had to destroy it. I even tried sanding one of them down to make it fit. In the end I decided that these were for the birds and went back to my slightly used orange polyurathane ones from Moss.I might still try the nylatron camber bushings from Moss later.

I also found that one of my trunion pins (connect trunion to lever arm) had an off center cotter pin hole (also from Winners Circle). I had to go back to my old worn orginal. The orignal one is much higher quality even thought it is worn. I will change it later when I find good ones.

I also had to struggle with stuck bolts on one of my old spring seats.

Finally I was ready to assemble.
I now have both new lower control arms, springs, spindles (w/new kingpins) installed. However, I did have some new problems. Possibly being caused by my being so tired.

On the left side I had to struggle to get the trunion lined up with the shock lever arm. They were too close. Even with out a bushing between them they were too close. I managed to scrunch them together and get the pin through.

After I had both springs installed and the trunsion bolts in I noticed a dismaying problem.

One axle was pointing straight ahead and the other was turned like it was making a right turn.

Is it possible to install the steering links backwards (left on the right side and right on the left side)?
I never removed the tie rod ends. I have had this stuff disconnected many times without having this problem but this is the first time I remove and reinstalled the steering links (as well as swivel axels and A arms).

The casting numbers on my installed steering links are on the bottom. Should I see these casting numbers on the top instead? Is it even possible to install them backwards? It was so late when I discovered this that I did not have time to debug.

This is most distressing.

I did not take pictures because my camera failed.
I will see if I have any prior pictures that will help me determine if the links are reversed.

Has anyone done this before (if it is possible). If so, is the symptom that I am having indicative of this mistake?

thanks,
Rebecca
R Harvey

By 'steering links' do you mean the steering arms, whcih bolt onto the stub-axles and the TREs attach to?

If so, if they were the wrong way up, the TREs wouldn't fit, as they are on a taper. Although if the TREs were turned upside-down, they would fit the steering arms, but probably would fit inside the wheel. The nut for the TRE should be on top of the steering arm.

Have you fitted negative camber trunnions? That could explain the strange steering angles.
Dave O'Neill 2

I put back the regular polyurathane trunion bushings.
Yes. that is the steering links that I am talking about.
They seemed correct when I re-installed them.
You make a good point about them not being able to fit in the wrong side because of the taper.

The steering is WAY off now and all of the previous times I removed these parts and put them back everything fit the same. This time it is different.

However, this time I have new parts (everything).
Unfortunately I won't be able get back to the car until late next week. I will be wondering how this could have happened all week. too bad my camera failed, I could have at least had the pics to analyze.

Rebecca
R Harvey

Hey reb,

I feel for you, Front suspensions are not easy on these little monsters... they will cause hair loss for sure

Im wondering if you have your truion link in backwards, Ive done that... Both sides LOL, if it is the wheel will be far out (away from the car) at the top and at the bottom of the car sucked way in towards the car... Im woundering if you had the steering arm upside down along with the backwards truion link... Im (purely guessing) that the wheel could fit.

on the bushings I think you have to use a special grease... I want to say anti seizure compound .. But I cant say for sure... But Ive heard they can be a tight fit

on the kigh pin... If your refering to the castle nut with the cotter pin, Im using a Nyloc nut instead and have had no problems,,, 6 years and counting

I wish I could remember what I used inplace of the cork.. cause like you, it was thrash


one thing ive learned,,, work until things start to go bad and then stop... if you just try to grunt it out, the problems always goes further down the rat hole.

Reb... hang in there okay, barrow a cam and take some pics for us.... I personally know what your feeling... the only thing I can offer that worked for me after a time like your having is a hot shower, peace and quite in the ol lazy boy, and a HOT cup of earl gray tea.

Prop
Prop

I should add a few more comments.

Regarding Winners circle. I am very happy (so far so good) with the competition swivel axels that I bought from them (stock ones with better 4030 steel axles welded on). This is the reason why I bought the other parts from them (I was making an order anyway).

Am I correct in concluding that the pin that olds the fulcrum pin from spinning (locks it in place with a flat spot) is just that. It does not serve other purpose?

thanks,
Rebecca
R Harvey

Hi

Yes, the cotter is only to stop the fulcrum pin from rotating and not to compensate for any play in the suspension

It is not designed for hanging off with a spanner or socket to get it as tight as you can.

The cotter should just be dropped in and "nipped up" I would normally install it last, when the trunnion etc is all in place and tightened up.

Im sure a photo will solve it but it does sound like you have one of the steering arms on upside down.
S G Macfarlane

sounds like you have one (or both) top trunnions facing the wrong way, they face inwards not outwards - see pic in thread 'are my kingpins bending' - just a bit down the list from this thread...
David Smith

Going back to your original post...

<<Is it possible to install the steering links backwards (left on the right side and right on the left side)?>>

Yes, that is possible. The crank in the steering arm faces outwards towards the wheel. If you fit the arms on the wrong side and have the crank inwards, you will have a lot of toe-out!
Dave O'Neill 2

Rebecca, the cotter IS important. The trunion pin must be held tightly to the kingpin. The trunion pin must rote in the threaded bushings in the aframe, albeit a 1/8th turn or so. The bottom of the kingpin is not designed to have any rotation by the trunion. We've seen oversize and undersize drillings for the cotter in the kingpin.

Peter
Peter Caldwell

Does anyone create oversize pins for the lower kingpin trunion pin?
I have one in there now that is pushed in too far. I don't want to start again with another kingpin.

Rebecca
R Harvey

Rebecca -
The correct use of the term "cotter" is just this sort of pin, with a flat side to lock against a flat surface in the retained part. Things like locomotives were built with such devices as the main means of holding stuff together. The beauty if it is that a competent workman can make one with a file, that fits exactly correctly. The fit is critical, since it is essential a friction held force fit; the little threaded end is a mostly useless addition to calm "civilians". As anybody can tell you who has taken apart these things, removing the nut does not let you just push out the pin - it usually has to be drilled out from the bottom.

So, the diameter of the cotter should be a close fit in the drilled hole, and the tapered flat should be such that it turns the pin into a heavy drive fit before the top of the pin gets down to the top of the hole. It IS ESSENTIAL that the flat on the threaded fulcrum pin be correctly aligned with the flat on the cotter. Once you get that right, you beat the cotter in from the top. The bottom can be cut off a bit below the bottom of the kingpin, and riveted over for security. To rivet the end, you must use a heavy backing tool on the top side so you don't drive the cotter back out of the hole. Or you can be crude and just bend the protruding end over. It is held together by friction on the flat, not by the little nut.

The correct material for the cotter is a not too hard steel, like a cheap bolt. I have found that large nails/spikes from the hardware store are excellent for such jobs. They file easily and rivet nicely.

As Peter says, it is important that there be no free motion between the fulcrum pin and the king pin, so that the fulcrum pin turns with suspension motion, but the kingpin does not move on the fulcrum. If there is such movement, the parts wear out and give fearsome clunks when you hit the brakes, as the kingpin smashes against where the miserable cork washers were.

FRM
FR Millmore

I have found that some of the fulcrum pivot pins have a larger flat ground into them which means that the cotter pin drops down further into its hole. Maybe that is where the problem lies.
Either that, or perhaps someone in the past has had difficulty getting the cotter pin out, has attempted to drill it and ended up with an oversized hole in the kingpin.
I don't know if oversized cotter pins are available specifically for this application, but it is a fairly standard generic item and should be available in a variety of sizes. Failing that, it would be easy enough to modify an appropriate bolt on a grinding wheel.

Guy

Sorry Fletcher - typing whilst you were posting your more erudite and engineer-based response.
Guy

I tried swapping fulcrum and pins with the other one and the result was the same (proved that the problem was the hole in the kingpin).
rebecca
R Harvey

This thread was discussed between 28/03/2011 and 29/03/2011

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