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MG Midget and Sprite General - what transmission in the 1500?

I can't remember, someone mentioned it here before: what BLMC vehicle donated its manual transmission to the 1500 Midget?

Herald?

Spit?

Just curious.


Norm
Norm Kerr

I know it was a triumph box and I thought it was from a dolomite.
Arie de Best

Surely box the same as a later Spitfire. Anything other than that would not make sense.

A
Anthony Cutler

Fom a range of British cars,
Spitfire MK3 (4 had the overdrive)
Morris Ital
Austin Marina
Triumph Dolomite
MA Wilson

I was under the impression that it was a Spitfire transmission and engine in the Midget which lead many purists to disown the 1500 as not being 100% MG even though the engine/transmission was an "in house" item from BLMC.

The later Spitfire transmissions with over drive will not fit the Midget without some permanent modifications to the car. I don't mind modifications as long as they can be reversed and aren't permanent like removing the rubber bumpers. Makes one less original Midget remaining from a dwindling supply.

My 2 cents worth on that subject.
Clive Reddin

My MOT man who knows alot about this stuff reckons the largest number of 1500 gearboxes are Marina ones.
rachmacb

The gearbox is the 'Single Rail' British Leyland Small Car 'box originally fitted to the Spitfire 1500.

It was subsequently fitted to:

Midget 1500
Marina
Ital
Dolomite 1500
Dolomite 1850

Note: The Spitfire MkIII and MkIV had the 'Three Rail' 'box, BOTH of which could be fitted with the D Type (later J type) overdrive.

The O/D in the Spitfire 1500 was the J Type.
Deborah Evans

Also be aware that there are 2 variants, the early version had a scroll seal on the input shaft, the later version had a lip seal.

There were also differences in the gear ratios fitted to the different car types. Eg the Spitfire had a slightly lower 1st and 2nd, but a higher 3rd compared to the Midget.
Deborah Evans

I, too, have heard "Marina" before, and seen it stated in histories of the Midget websites, like here:
http://www.mgmidgets.net/history.htm

but reading up on the development of the Marina, I found conflicting reference at Austin Rover Online, here:
http://www.aronline.co.uk/

it is said that the Morris Marina's A-series engine and transmission were lifted straight from the Midget, and in 1971, that would have been the aluminum housing rib case. Irritatingly, AROnline lacks a "Midget" history section, so there is no cross reference.

Since the 1500 uses a cast iron case, and has synchro in all 4 gears, I am thinking that the Marina is not related to the source of the M/T in the Midget 1500.

Can someone help clear this (Marina) point up for me?

Norm "never actually seen a Marina" Kerr


Norm Kerr

The original 3 Marina prototypes were fitted with a Midget drive train (aside from the axle) but no production car ever had the ribcase 'box. The reason for this was that the car was intended to compete with the Ford Escort/Cortina series (especially in the 'Company Car' market) and it was felt that a lack of synchromesh on 1st gear would be seen as 'old fashioned' and thus be detrimental to sales.

All production Marinas (whether A Series or B Series engined) utilised the Triumph Single Rail 'box. I believe later cars used the O Series engine (essentially a SOHC development of the B Series), certainly the Itals did (a 'cleaned up' rehash of the Marina), and this too was mated to the Triumph 'box.

As an interesting aside, the Marina's live axle was also used in the Triumph Dolomite, TR7 and Caterham 7, the differential being sourced from the 'Small Chassis Triumphs' (Herald/Vitesse/Spitfire/GT6).


"Norm "never actually seen a Marina" Kerr"

You haven't missed out on anything Norm, Marinas were bloody execrable things probably only capped by the terrible Austin Allegro!
Deborah Evans

You can see both here...

http://www.navy-net.co.uk/diamond-lils/52803-70-s-5.html

Why did our police force use so many of both these cars? They were badly made, slow, didnt handle and awfully unreliable. It's a wonder plod ever collared anyone.
Bob T

"Why did our police force use so many of both these cars?"

Because BL was State owned at the time so Public Sector vehicle purchases went to them, whether Police, Armed Forces, etc.

My Father was a senior manager with BAA at the time and ended up with a Marina, followed by an Ambassador, followed by a Maestro. Horrible cars, all of them.
Deborah Evans

They re-invented the wheel for the Allegro... quite literally, it had a square steering wheel!

Completly off topic but it's about the only interesting thing I could think to post! ha ha

Cheers,
Malcolm
M Le Chevalier

WOW, cool, thanks everyone!


So, that means that you can take a Marina transmission (or just the bell housing + a 1500 M/T) and get 1st gear synchro, with an A series then!

Aside from the weight increase, the only downside would be finding one (due to the relative lack of Marinas left in the world). There must have been tons of them in scrap yards in the '70s, '80s and '90s.

Does the 1500 shift as sweetly as the ribcase does?

Interesting ideas for a rainy afternoon...

Oh, wait, maybe the Marina bell housing won't fit in a Midget tub (the Marina was designed for larger B engines, after all). LHD might also be an issue, depending on if that capability was designed into it or not.


Norm "doesn't really mind a non-synchro 1st" Kerr
Norm Kerr

Bob,

Not all the Marinas were that slow. There used to be a maroon IIRC 1.8TC that hillclimbed at Wiscombe on a few occasions when I was there and that was a very quick car, granted I suspect it had been well sorted and wasn't as it left the factory.
David Billington

Norm,

Current practice amongst the Class A cars in the MG Midget Championship is to fit the single rail 'box. IIRC Chris Groves does an alloy bellhousing to mate it to the A Series.

The Triumph single-rail 'box is FAR stronger than the ribcase and has a more positive, sweeter, shift (although nowhere near as 'rifle-bolt' like as the earlier 3-rail 'box).
Deborah Evans

Deb, good to see your back on this bbs!!
Arie de Best

Thanks Arie,

I'm currently rather busy trying to sell the house/find somewhere else to live, but I'll pop in now and then when I can.
Deborah Evans

Norm,
The usual approach to getting a synchro on first is to fit a 5-speed...
David "you're thinking outside the 'box again" Lieb
David Lieb

Don't think we got many A series Marinas, if at all. The few I've seen were all B series automatics. Only good thing was you could use it to make an automatic B (also very rare here) for people with bad legs.

A tiny Marina freak group here: http://www.austinmarina.com/

Wiki says no North American 1300s, only sold as 1800 in US from 73-75, 73-78 Canada, and of course we also got emissions strangled ones. Article has a pretty cool looking pop top camper/van and a pickenup truck, which of course we didn't get.

FRM
FR Millmore

So the 1500 midget has no syncro on first then?
BH Harvey

BH,
The 1500 DOES have synchros on all forward gears. Fitting the 1500 box to an A-Series Spridget, however, seems like a lot of work for a 1st-gear synchro. Might as well install a 5-speed.
David "5-speeds on my Bugeye and my RWA" Lieb
David Lieb

This thread was discussed between 11/04/2011 and 12/04/2011

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