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MG Midget and Sprite General - stupid new ethonal fuel....

Gez... Im having bear of a time with fuel... Its getting really bad

I had let the midget sit un-started for 3 weeks untill just the other day and it started hard and ran rough, so yesterday i pulled the carbs apart and. Everything the fuel touches is a white crystal scale just like last spring when the samething happened only much worse cause it sat so long

so got everything soaking in acetone...i didnt make it to the parts store for carb cleaner

So how do i combat this....i know driving cures it...but Gez 3 weeks, come on !!

WILL fuel stablizer fix this, for as much work as is involoved im thinking some kind of 2nd hose with a switch to drain out the fuel after use to keep the fuel from doing this

Any ideas

Prop

Prop

AAARRRGGGGGGGG......

IM having a witch of a time with my rear carb float needle...its just continually sticking....ive clewned it and the seat.several times an get it to working ... Then let it cool down and it sticks in the closed position each time after it cools down....its the needle with the little.rubber part at the end, ... Its like is to soft and wants to form a tight seal bond to the seat in the lid,

Do i need a new needle... Its not that old...maybe 15 hours of use,

Anyone got any ideas on how to solve the sticking issue

Prop
Prop

Prop,

Is the body of the needle plastic? I think I heard that some of them had some molding scarf on them that needed to be trimmed or they would stick. This would be on the tips of the "wings" not on the actual viton tip.

If you put a switch in the fuel pump wiring, you could run the carbs dry when you park it.

Charley
C R Huff

thanks charly...some kind of imitation brass....its loosing its brass patina,,,and turning silver colored

I like your idea on the float pin wings ,,, ill give them a good sanding and see if thats making any drag,,,i hadnt thought of,that

prop
Prop

Can you not find a source of fuel without ethanol? However, I agree on your fuel problems Prop. On a long trip to Tennessee and back when I got home I found my plugs were all fouled up. Changed them out. Never had that happen with the fuels here in Canada before or since.
Clive Reddin

Time for a modern-engine-conversion guys. ;)
Arie de Best

Gentlemen, there was a link posted yesterday on another site with an article about dealing with ethanol blended fuels. http://www.historicvehicle.org/Latest-News/Current-news/2011/08/24/Kernel-Knowledge-One-man-on-a-mission
Not a total solution, but should help.
B Young

If I understand correctly, soon there will be no more pumps in the US that will sell unadulterated gas due to government mandate, so enjoy it while you can. I wonder how much 10% ethanol in our gas has reduced our dependence on foreign oil? On our recent trip up north to Midget 50, we drove through Illinois, one of the largest corn producing areas in the country, and passed miles and miles of cornfields as far as you could see. (Interestingly, some of these flat fields had windmill farms in them amongst the corn.) And, we passed several billboards boasting how proud they were to be growing corn for ethanol. It was disgusting. All they are doing is taking corn production away from people and animals since corn for ethanol is different from corn for eating. Are you blessed with this stuff across the way? Interesting info on the Soy Ultra additive. Wonder if it's just snake oil or something to it. Turns out there is a sales rep 16 miles from me. May give it a try.
Jack Orkin

Growing corn for ethanol is bad for world food prices (and that hurts the poor the most) and is bad for the environment as it is an inefficient way of creating energy. Plus it's crap in your car. Ban it now!!!
Chris H (1970 Midget 1275)

Chris, save your breath. Good science and common sense have never been able to conquer a government bureaucrat or a devoted ideologue. I think the whole idea behind most of these schemes is that if it appears good for the people and they like it, it must therefore be bad and should be banned by the government and a substitute solution subsidized with taxes.
B Young

Guys....

You need to be careful what your saying on these boards...there is a reson iowa is the 1st state in the election process


You really dont want to screw around with the corn lobby or monsanto..... There not a nice or tolerant people, like the kind generous group known as the noustra ???.... Aka The italian mobsters...aka... The godfather and goodfellows movies

Prop
Prop

Find a farm co-op or Grange or anywhere that farmers come to fill their rigs and you will most likely find pure gas available.
I can't see that changing anytime soon, since farm equipment needs pure gas (or diesel) and won't tolerate ethanol.
Rick Bastedo

Last night i got the carbs put back togather and got the midget fired up so hopefully i can get it retuned tomarrow night

Im starting to accept that a fuel additive....is going to be the new standard

Thanks guys

Prop
Prop

Prop,

I hope you have your fuel issues sorted out now.

However, I can almost guarantee that the "new ethanol fuel" is not the problem -- unless you accidentally put E85 in the tank, despite all the warnings on the pump.

We've had "gasohol" or E10 (90 percent petrol, 10 percent ethanol) in the Midwest since 1978. You would have a hard time finding fuel anywhere near you that does not contain 10% ethanol. The one exception, according the http://www.buyrealgas.com, is in Sunrise Beach.

E85 (15 percent petrol and 85 percent ethanol) is an absolute NO NO in all vehicles, except some new vehicles specifically designed to use it. Put E85 in any other vehicle and you will have major problems.

Modern fuels are vastly different from those years ago and the addition of ethanol is just one of many changes. The guy in the article that Bill cites provides zero evidence as to the cause of the problems he experiences.

Now, all that being said, growing corn for fuel is one of the stupidest endeavors we've ever undertaken. Bad policy, bad economics and bad for the environment.

Stay away from that yellow pump!

Lee



Lee Fox

I get pure gas at the local Grange feed store.
I get better gas mileage with it and it doesn't cost much more - just a couple cents a gallon.
Rick Bastedo

Perfect timming lee....long time no see.

I had a really bad day today, and im just now back to where i was at 10 am this morning

All i had to do was adjust the carbs and fiddle with the timming, so i fired up the car ran it about 10 minutes to get it warmed up and noticed the fuel gauge read empty, so i poured in the rest of a gas can i have for the mower noticing id left the cap off several weeks before.... It started running really bad wohile trying to adjust, then it wouldnt run just a few pops so i removed the gas and put in fresh new gas...the old gas was about 6 weeks old....and still no fire wnd run, then i remembered the 6 week old fuel in the flaot chanmbere so i sucket out and refilled with new gas.... Turned the key and it fired right up....

So now im where i was at 10 am... Adjust the carbs and check the timming


So i think your info was accurate and factual 6 months ago,

but with a state gov that can no longer afford to opperate and profit margins thin at the pump.... I think its possiable we are seeing a growing trend of just bad fuel ... Some area are worse then others....i just hope you dont have the issues ive had with fuel this year

You just can not allow this stuff to sit around like we could a year ago

Prop
Prop

This is all rather interesting, as I've had no trouble at all running pump gas in my '78. Even after sitting most of the summer due to a mechanical issue and brutally hot weather, it fired up on the first crank when I revived it recently, and idles and runs without missing a beat. So I really don't know what to say, Prop... like the guys at the car dealer service center say, "We couldn't duplicate the problem, sir..."

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

Gryf

Give me 3 to 6 weeks i can duplicate it with our local fuel...haha

This fuel mess is getting really old and fast

Btw... You guys in st. Louis have a differnat fuel blend then we do because you guys being city metro complex and we are redneck urban cornfield part of the state....i wonder if that has something to do with it.

Prop
Prop

Prop, how's the humidity been?
Ethanol draws in moisture.
If your gas can wasn't sealed then the ethanol isn't really your problem, your problem is water in your gas.
Rick Bastedo

Prop... Do NOT use any fuel with Ethanol in it....! It eats the carbs and the fuel lines plus does a host of other nasty things to your engine. It has a shelf life of no more than 2 weeks and shouldn't be used in any vehicle built before 1986.

Just use Petrol Prop... and as close to 100 Octane as you can buy....

Mark.
M T Boldry

just out of curiosity, how does ethanol go with Rover K-series engines?



"It eats the carbs and the fuel lines"

Mark, do you mean the metall fuel lines or just the rubber ones?
Arie de Best

Arie, 10% ethanol fuel should work ok in newer engines, especially in those with fuel injection. I have no problems with it in my V6. Prop, I saw an ad on the telly this past weekend where StaBil is now offering a product to work with ethanol blended fuels, perhaps that would be an answer for a car that is seldom used. I think that a car that is driven often wouldn't have much problem as the fuel in the carbs would be kept much fresher and not allowed to evaporate or attract moisture in the float bowl through the vent.
B Young

Wow! This is scary stuff. Are we in the UK going to be getting fuel with that amount of Ethanol in it? It must be a nightmare in parts of the U.S. where you can't get anything else.

Bernie.
b higginson

Just out of interest - why do they add ethanol? Is it cheaper/better or something?

Rob Armstrong

Politics .... Pure and simple

The corn lobby corruptably bribed ....sorry i mean generiously donated caimpian cash to the republicans to be there slaves ...opps agian sorry, will of the people as its known back when they were in control of the house and senate to enact the use of corn based ethonal instead of cane suger like the rest of the planet uses to force ethonel into fuel... Giving big agg lots and lots of extra cash and drive up demand and increasing cost of food products

If im found dead in the next 5 days. For writing this post .... Look to adm, mansanto, conagra ect ect ... These crime lord syndicates are not as nice, tolerant and friendly.as... Scarface Al capon and his friends the itilian mob where

Prop
Prop

Politics .... Pure and simple

The corn lobby corruptably bribed ....sorry i mean generiously donated caimpian cash to the republicans to be there slaves ...opps agian sorry, will of the people as its know to enact the use of corn based ethonal instead of cane suger like the rest of the planet uses to force ethonel into fuel... Giving big agg lots and lots of extra cash and drive up demand and increasing cost of food products

If im found dead in the next 5 days. For writing this post .... Look to adm, mansanto, conagra ect ect ... These crime lord syndicates are not as nice, tolerant and friendly.as... Scarface Al capon and his friends the itilian mob where

Prop
Prop

Big corporations give generously to both major parties in the US, so anyone who wins by definition owes them.
That's the reality of the situation, love it or hate it that's what it is.

If it were SIMPLY that they "gave" money to the republicans then why would it still be going on now?
This transcends any one party, this is corporate sponsorship of the government at large and no matter what party gets elected it will continue.

No electable politician will turn down the money from big Ag, big Oil, big 'anything'.
They can't turn down the money AND win.

Therefore any politician who has won any race has taken the money and OWES their sponsors.

We as a people have given up our power to the corporations, we won't easily get it back.

Now - don't you have a feed store anywhere near where you live? Funny thing about Ethanol fuel - farmers can't use it in their equipment. Farmers need a source of pure gas. Find out where they buy it and go there. If it's a trip then take some gas cans. Pure gas keeps a lot longer than Ethanol.
Rick Bastedo

The move to ethanol blended fuel started with two ideas, one to lessen the US dependence on imported oil, and two supposedly ethanol blended fuel burns cleaner resulting in less emmisions and polution. Going to a sugar derived ethanol would have worked but a lot of the sugar used in the US is imported as well, but we grow plenty of corn and some politician thought that the US farmers could use the extra crop income. I know that methanol has a much higher octane rating than plain petrol, but I'm not sure about ethanol. It does contain about one half the amount of btus per gallon as that of petrol, so you're paying as much or more per gallon for less total energy when you buy ethonal blended fuel. Just goes to show what a determined lobby of farmers and environmentalists can get from the government if they want to.
As for just using non blended petrol, that's much easier to do in your local area if you can find a source, but when travelling it's difficult to find unblended petrol in a lot of locations these days. Most of the stations I used during my trip to Midget 50 were selling blended petrol. If the additives like Sta-Bil work then those would be a good thing to have along on a trip.
B Young

Bill, you are right on.

On my trip across the country for Midget 50 I was pleased to find many fuel stops offered premium pure gas. It cost a little more but at 40 mpg I didn't care.

When I use Ethanol 'tainted' gasoline my gas mileage is much closer to 25 for daily commuting.
When I burn pure premium my commute mileage is 30.
So I get a 20% increase in efficiency for gas that costs me 7% more per gallon.

This is a no brainer for me, since I also feel the difference by the seat of the pants gauge.

I also feel better about putting pure gas in my car, both for my car and because I don't want to support the 'corn for fuel' philosophy.

Corn is food, gasoline is fuel - it's a personal belief and I like to vote with my spending.
Rick Bastedo

Well

I did some checking.last and today.... The only 91 octan pure fuel is hy vee

The loop hole.trick is the gas station has to display that there
91 and above fuel is ethonal free....if there is no advert at the pump saying its ethonal free, then its a blend....nice

I think im going to.start using.marvs mystry oil as an additive.... That seems to be tue perfered additive of choice for the folks ive talked to
Its just sad.what we have to deal with these days
Prop

Rob,
The way I understand it - all members of the EU have to meet a target by a certain date for conversion to E10 fuel otherwise they are subject to a heavy fine.

I have just returned from a trip to Germany where you cannot avoid filling up with fuel containing ethanol. Their "Super" (95 octane) has 5% ethanol (E5) and the only other choice is E10.

Apparently, the German motorists are shunning the 10% stuff and the Government is getting worried that they are not going to meet their quota and are heading for a hefty fine. They are now leaning on the fuel companies to hike up the price on E5 to encourage people to fill up with E10.

It's all to do with Green issues, global warming etc. Oh, and keeping Brussels bureaucrats in jobs and in the style to which they are accustomed.

I don't know what the position is here in Britain bearing in mind that our government slavishly follow any directive coming out of the EU. (unlike some other countries I could name)

I had intended to do the trip in the Spridget but fortunately took the modern instead.

Dave
D MATTHEWS

Prop,

Here in the Mid-Atlantic we have not had to many options with E-10 for a few years now. We have been using an enzyme/stabilizer product called Star-Tron that seems to work well. Carry a spare fuel filter for the first few tank full's. Here's a link:

http://mystarbrite.com/startron/

Regards,

Larry C.
Larry C '69 Midget

OK, I've been running E10 in my spridgets for quite some time. What problems should I look for? So far I have not noticed any problems.
Trevor Jessie

The biggest problem is that all alcohols are hygroscopic. That means that it attracts and couples with the moisture in the air, resulting in greater amounts of ethanol / water mixture collecting in the fuel tank. Since water is heavier than gasoline, the ethanol / water mixture settles to the bottom of the fuel tank. This is referred to as “phase separation”, and eventually the ethanol / water phase is drawn into the fuel delivery system. If there is no water separator in the fuel line, the separated water goes into the carburetor and, consequently, the engine does not run properly. In extreme cases, the engine will stop running. An additional problem that owners will face lies in the reduction of octane, which is critical to the engine's performance. Ethanol is rated at over 100+ octane, and provides the fuel with much of its octane rating. However, once the water content reaches about a .5% level, it will phase separate. With the ethanol settling to the bottom along with the water, the octane of the fuel will be reduced, and this can cause a loss of performance, including preignition which can damage the engine. It also severely worsens fuel economy and power output. There are other problems with E-10 fuel. Ethanol is a powerful solvent that readily breaks up both the tars and the organic sediments that are commonly found in many fuel tanks. The ethanol / water mix also makes a potent stripping agent for the old varnish and gum that has accumulated from years of gasoline sitting in the tank. These organic contaminants, once loosened from the walls of the tank, can plug fuel filters and carburetor fuel jets quickly, disabling the engine. In cold weather, the ethanol / water phase can also freeze, turning into a syrupy mix that congests and plugs fuel filters. Alcohol also has a lower caloric content than gasoline, thus its heat output, and hence its power output, is inherently less than that of gasoline. This results in turn with the driver operating his engine at a wider throttle opening in an attempt to compensate for the decreased power output, with the attendant consequence of decreased fuel economy. Obviously. if you can avoid purchasing E-10 fuel, you would be wise to do so.
Stephen Strange

OK, so that all makes sense. However, I'm not sure how much difference it makes. If I had a bit of spare cash, it would make an interesting experiment at the dyno shop.
Trevor Jessie

Weekly commuting numbers I get 20% better gas mileage running pure gas over the 10% ETHANOL FUEL.
sorry bout the caps lock there...
Rick Bastedo

The big differance is in how often you drive ... If your using the car as a daily driver there are not many issues, its when the car sits for 6 weeks or more that the problems start to occur

I guess the best cure is to drive it daily

Prop



Prop

Just realized the % figures could be confusing.
I should have said:

My car gets 30 mpg while commuting back and forth to work which is a 26 mile round trip each Monday through Friday. This is using pure gasoline purchased at the farm supply store.

When using the gasohol purchased from the ARCO station or the local COSTCO the same commute consumes fuel at a rate of 25 mpg.

This is traveling the same route at the same speed.

30 = 25 * 1.2

In my case using gasoline is 20% more efficient than using gasohol.

Like Trevor said it would require use of a dyno to see for sure if there were an appreciable difference in power.
Rick Bastedo

Sorry no it dosnt need a dyno aka rolling road..

I put the pure 91 octan from the only real fuel source in town "hy vee" in my truck tank yesterday morning ... And the tank had about 1/4 gallon left of the old stuff....

And the differance was huge... As in night and day, polar oppisite...there is a long steep grade of high way i have to travel each morning on the way into town i hit the bottom at 75 mph and hit the top at around 50 mph... Today i hit the top at 60 mph... Its been years scence thats happened...

Needless to say ... Ive found my new and only local gas station, and because its a food market store ... I just have to purchase one item at the store and get a 3 cent per gal gas.dscount

Ahhhhh....15 gallons at 3 cents, oh yeah .45 cents per tank It adds up over time im sure....hahaha, damn... They got me coming and going didnt they...lol
Prop

I have had difficulty under similar instances to prop, with putting a few litres of petrol from the mower can in the car and having it run very poorly.

As an interesting side note, while I try to avoid ethanol fuels in the Midget, E85 is available over here now and is very popular in performance circles as more power can be made, particularly with forced induction, due to the higher octane rating. You use a lot more of it, but can use more timing/boost/compression without pinging, and so make more power.
AndrewF

Prop,

The 'shelf life' of Ethanol based fuels is only 2 weeks... so if you have a big tank, I would only put in what you will use in the week and keep topping up... Your 60 mph will soon become 50 - 40 and 30 if you leave it there for long and you'll grind to a full stop eventually.

However, to answer Arie's question, it is reasonable to assume that any vehicle built after 1986 will tollerate a percentage of E5 or E10 fuels.

I would NOT use it on any of my classics.

Mark.
M T Boldry

While googling for information on ethanol fuels the other day I came across a site (can't remember which it was now) that was very informative. They also alleged that one of our biggest supermarkets has ethanol added to all their products, so you could be filling up without being aware that there was an ethanol content. I'll leave you to decide which supermarket it was.

Dave

D MATTHEWS

I found this site very informative. www.jawaczownersclub.co.uk click on technical help and scroll down to Ethanol in fuel.
I must say that all this bio fuel stuff is very depressing when you read what it can do to the various components found in classic vehicles. Does anyone know of an effective corrosion inhibitor available in the UK?

Bernie :o(
b higginson

hi Bernie just found Millers V.S.P. Power Plus at my local motor store. it seems to tick all the boxes a bit late in the year for me, so willhave to wait and see hpoe you find this worth a try. norman
N Speak

Thanks Norman. I'll certainly give it a try. I think I've seen it at Barry Stafford's place, the local branch of Moss.

Bernie.
b higginson

This thread was discussed between 29/08/2011 and 17/09/2011

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