British-Cars.org

Welcome to the DMR Site for British Car Information.

Recommendations

Parts

MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG Midget and Sprite General - Spridget Family tree

I just started this family tree.
http://www.spridgetguru.com/SpridgetGeneology.html

Please let me know If I have anything missing.
S.A. Jones

Doesn't the later 1275 Midget use the Spit rack?

Surely ADO34 came after the Midget MK I?

A
Anthony Cutler

Not a bad try though.
There was also a prototype before the Mk1 Midget which had the midget front and the Frogeye rear as well as the prototype Mk1 Sprite with the pop-up headlights but we're getting into semantics here, as it's still nice to see the timeline as a family tree.
Gary & Gaps

I seem to recall that the last of the Sprites were Austin and not Austin Healey if thats any help.
Graham.
Graham P 1330 Frogeye

I know you are just trying to put a direct lineage of sorts, but close cousin cars might be helpful. For example show the MGA from the TF, and then also the MGB.
Trevor Jessie

Now to be correct

the D should be a development of the C and not a "brother"
The Q should folow the J and be a brother of the P and the R should follow the Q.
After that the Q/R line should stop and the TA should follow from the P.
Onno Könemann

Yes; MK-I Midget rear panel design was influenced by MGB not yet launched. IIRC Healey did the front-end re-design and MG the back-end.

A
Anthony Cutler

Seth you have mail
Gary & Gaps

Did ado36 influence the front end design of the mgb?
S.A. Jones

Speaking to Don last year (Of MGB design fame) he said that the car had been designed as a small version of the MGB, this can be clearly seen from the rear of the car. The front end however required the headlights to be raised this resulted in the wings being extended upwards at the front which is opposite to the MGB design and IMO does little to help the front end of the car. The grill of course is certainly not MG by design and neither is it Healey I think the grill resulted from a compromise made by Abingdon (MG) design to the desires of BMC and Austin.
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Seth,

I've tried to open up your site and it gets part way into it then crashes my PC....! It's done this three times now... is there something wrong..?
Did a disc clean up last night and got rid of 45 Meg of temp files... did the same again this morning (after trying your site a couple of times) and removed 60+ Meg of temp files.

Maybe time to get a Mac...

Looking forward to being able to explore it properly.

Mark.
M T Boldry

Mark,

It locked mine up too. I had to shut down with the kill button, and then reboot. I assumed I was just lame, so it's kind of nice to hear I am not alone. Misery loves company.

Charley
C R Huff

It worked fine for me but unfortunately I was dissapointed to see that large parts of my own website have been lifted wholesale onto Seth's with neither permission asked for, given or credited.
He has even lifted the disclaimer directly from my website, verbatim.
I'm very dissapointed and quite p*ssed off.
Gary & Gaps

Ah Gary but he is the Spridget guru! maybe?
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Bob don't remind me of that...
Still think it is an arogant statment
Onno Könemann

Well the Triumph part of the tree is wrong.

Firstly there is NO input from TR3 into Spitfire.

Secondly it should go:

Herald 948 - Herald 1200 - Spitfire 4 (MkI) - Spitfire MkII - Spitfire MkIII - Spitfire MkIV - Spitfire 1500 - Midget 1500.

Additionally, Triumph 1500 FWD - Spitfire 1500
Deborah Evans

Well, dispite me sending him an email and him posting here after he would have received it. There is still no explanation from Spridgetguru on how the(right click disabled) items on my website miraculously found their way onto his website.
Gary & Gaps

Gary, are you referring to the magazine articles?
Trevor Jessie

I'm referring to the magazine articles and the 100 or so adverts. These are from magazines which I've bought over the years (some at great expence). Also the fact that Seth has cut and pasted specific text from the site.
I can't stop what he's done but he didn't even bother asking or credit the source of the wonderful collection on his website.
I appreciate that I don't have copyright for the articles and adverts but I have put a disclaimer on the site and right click disabled the images.
Let's face it, I'm not difficult to get hold of to ask.
Any images which I have lifted from other websites has been with the xpress permission of the site owner or photographer and sometimes both.
Gary & Gaps

Seth.... I think some explainations are due if you want to keep the respect you have built over the years...

Mark.
M T Boldry

Ads are availible on ebay. I swipe the pics from that site all the time. Probably most of the ad secton on my website was taken from ebay. Apparently my email links are busted or you never sent me an email. This is the first I have heard of you complaining. I sincerely doubt that you have the express permission of any of the photographers that took the pictures featured in the articles you chose to share with the world.

I could link to your site if you wish, however, smugmug is like flicker or other public picture host. You don't really have all that much control over anything. To tell the truth, if you can view something on your computer there is a way to grab it beyond right clicking. There is always a way. You can use screen capture, scour your temproary files directory, play games with the activity monitor, or get a free program that downloads a site in its entirety including the media.

Most of what you have is is sore need of some image enhancement and could be much better arranged and presented. For starters, if the articles are OCRed into a text file or HTML then you can actually find stuff in the document with a search engine. Some of them are such low resolution that there completely illegible. It took me less than a day to get every single picture hosted on that site and about a month and a half to edit OCR enhance as much as I have and its only halfway there.

I have not used any of your wedding pictures, or your impressive database of every british registered sprite known to exist (even though I downloaded those too and let me tell you it look a while to sift through it all to get to what I could actually use). I may link to those if I feel a need to (I really don't). The fact is that you are the copyright holder of those pictures or you have the permission of those guys. I tried contacting the editors at autocar and they said absolutely nothing. If you want credit for "submitting" all of the articles in question, I'll put it on the website tomorrow. You don't have the copyrights for those articles and neither do I so why not just share what we've got? You are missing some stuff I've found here and there and once its on my website if it's not something I've written or created, it's fair game. I do wish that you would have uploaded the classifieds section of those magazines because then one of us could construct a chart showing the rate of depreciation of these cars from new (might consider that).

As for the guru bit, give it time I'm growing into it. So far is only a few on this forum that have a problem with it.
S.A. Jones

If you tried emailing me with the address listed on ths forum it doesnt work. That ones been dead some time now. Try sethamosjones@gmail.com
S.A. Jones

The problem Seth is that you downloaded images directly from my website of articles which I scanned from my own collection without even bothering to ask. Of course I can't stop you lifting the things which I've uploaded there, but the fact that I've right click disabled them and also asked for them not to be copied should have given you a clue that I probably would have prefered you not to.

I'm pleased to hear that you didn't feel the need to use my wedding photos. Am I supposed to be grateful to you for that?

It's not a matter of legalities, it's a matter of decency and manners, those can't be legislated for. The email address which I wrote to is the one that you have previously used to email me but decency and manners stops me from reproducing it here on a public forum.
Gary & Gaps

I've seen Gary ask for permission at least a couple of times to use photos and I certainly haven't been looking for Spridget photos

What I want to know is has Seth put up every page of every owners Handbook available, and if not why not?

(apart from Copyright issues of course)

If you were to do this then you really would be on your way to being a Spridget guru!
N Atkins

"from my website"

Smugmug isnt your website. It belongs to Chris and Don MacAskill. You merely have an account with them.

"which I scanned from my own collection"

that arent really yours because you never wrote them. nor do you have any claim to the photos contained therin, and by posting them you violated copyright law. the fact that so far no one has chosen to sue you mans that they may as well be in the public domain, in which case you may as well be screaming at me for copying the lyrics for the song "God Save the Queen" from "your website" and putting it on mine.

"I've right click disabled them and also asked for them not to be copied"

You had absolutely no right to do anything of the source since you are not the copyright holder. You seem to be overconfident in the security of internet websites, and have an inflated sense of ownership of these files. I get the sense that If I had physical copies of these magazines and scanned them myself we would still be having this conversation. in truth since we have never met and you live thousands of miles away you have no way of knowing what I do and do not have hard copies of.

I am offering to make ammends by aknowledging you as a contributor of the material on my website, I won't do so untill you accept that offer. Please be aware that not everything I have came from your site.

" it's a matter of decency and manners, those can't be legislated for"

HA! have you had the decency to track down the copyrigt holders and ask them for permission? How dare you talk to me about manners sir since you demonstrate yours so plainly.

Again I will aknowledge you as a contributor. All you got to do is agree that if I do, you will set this feud aside.

Atkins. Copyright is an issue yes. Availibility is another. I don't have them all and very few (if any) are scanned on the internet already. I am considering ways to use what I have on hand that would best benefit the whole spridget community.
S.A. Jones

Seth
You have a strange tone in your way of making amends!
The way you posted your explanation sounds arogant as does your statement of growing in to the "guru" claim.

Further you have no way of knowing wether or not gary has the rights other than his word.
I always assume people are speaking the truth and you should act accordingly!
Then atleast you will have done everything to act in a decent way


And accept the advice given and modify your tree so it is correct!
Onno Könemann

My view:

surely if there has been lifting of pictures without consent/ acknowledgement then that's simple plagiarism?

If Seth has pictures on his site that have been taken from Gary's site and not 'referenced' then that's wrong. If I were to put anything on my own site that was not of my own making, then I'd be referencing it. It's a habit born from the scientific community and is also good manners, and can get you into big trouble in the research world if you 'right click and download' and don't contact or acknowlege the person involved.

10 minutes spent checking everyone is happy and that no-one will be annoyed solves a lot of problems.

Seth - if Gary was a company and you had

"cut and pasted specific text from the site"

then they'd be after you. Equally if you were writing a piece and had copy-pasted information. The universities here in the UK take this so seriously that if you are caught doing it then you are in serious danger of having your degree wiped off the slate.

I had an image of my car taken form my Flickr account to use as a front on the MiniMania site, at the time Flickr clearly stated copyright on the page with the pictures. I wasn't too bothered about it TBH as it was just a picture, but if it was something I'd spent time and effort on then I'd be kicking up more of a stink.

I'm all for sharing within the community but sharing goes both ways - and in this situation, stating where things come from and who has put the effort in is important.

Rob
Rob Armstrong

We in here are very aware that Gary asks for permission to use any Sprite images that occur here and has done frequently in all the time I have used the BBS.

Having "rights" to use items is not the same as having normal manners and making acknowlegement of their use when you TAKE them.

I thought "gurus" were supposed to be wise knowlegable folks.

I dont think you qualify.

Bill 1

Don't do a Seth in the UK folks and lift chunks off other peoples websites wholesale, or you will come seriously unstuck.

Regardless of the original source of the images and whether you have a licence to use them or they are "orphan works", under uk law a collection of images in itself as an original compilation is subject to your copyright as the compiler, is also likely to be subject to "database rights" and your own original text is automatically copyright to you: all of which are enforceable throughout the EU. I've brought successful action for clients on far lesser examples.

Lucky for Seth he is in the US where you would struggle to enforce UK rights. Shame the extradition arrangements between the US and the UK don't work quite as favourably as between the UK and the US...

However, I think most of us can form a view on his attitude and expertise given his approach and comments on this thread. Just because you technically *can* do something doesn't make it morally or legally right.
Mothy

First off and as stated in discussions of sometime ago you have a very misleading website suggesting to the world you are some sort of Spridget Guru? is diabolical perhaps with another 35 years of hard spridget related work you may qualify but at present you are no where near and someone should file a complaint to trade discriptions.

Regarding copyright.

I am a long way from a legal expert but commonsense can resolve most issues.

Most facts can not be copyrighted such as how many black Midgets were made is not something that can be copyrighted, however if someone such as Horler decides to gather these kinds of facts in a book then a direct copy of his layout or text is fundementally against the law? however simply changing the format used to display these facts would get around that problem. However if you have used the information from a particular source to your advantage then common decency would say to acknowledge your source at the very least.

Also if someone has gone to a lot of trouble to do testing then copying those results must constitute an infringement of rights I would suspect.
Bob Turbo Midget England

My-wow-oh-yeah!

Spridget Guru is it you, Spridget Guru is it you

Sitting there in your comfy PC chair, oh yeah

Spridget Guru is it true, Spridget Guru is it true

You got the site but not the right, oh yeah

Spridget Guru could it be you're gonna bring the facts to me

They’ll be lifted, sorted, stored and shifted, oh yeah

Spridget Guru cuts and pastes then saves his face

Keep it clean you know shouldn’t be mean, oh yeah

Spridget Guru is it you, Spridget Guru is it you

No not yet, oh no, oh no, no, no, let go!

(any similarity to a popular ‘70s song is purely coincidental and unintentional, please don’t report me to Marc Bolan’s estate)
N Atkins

Thanks for your support but perhaps best to leave it at that, as Seth and I clearly have different views about asking permission. Just because you CAN take something without asking, doesn't mean that it's right if you do.
Gary & Gaps

My god
I have just wasted an hour of my life trying to read the total site.
And it is full of faults and hard to read.
Strangely he has taken the time to list the author/publisher on several other pieces.....

Seth
please do not call your self a guru
please remove the tech pages or put up a big disclaimer up as you do not have enough experiance to give advice to others.

Since you do not seem to be intrested in updating your tree with the advice given here I am not going to bother giving advice on the other faults.
Onno Könemann

I have a simple take on this (like me perhaps...)

The guy has appeared here often enough asking for assistance in queries of one sort or another

No problem with that

He won't get any responses from me in future
Bill 1

Ashame really. This could have been an interesting project for our web site, done properly. Would have made for interesting reading for both new, and seasoned Spridgeteer's.

My two pence.

L.C.
Larry C '69 Midget

Ok first of all, I do have a way of knowing that gary has no right to the material in question. If he actually was the copyright holder, then he would have a byline in every article he posted or own all of the magazine companies that publihed those articles. He doesn't have any byline in any article I posted on my website nor dos he have a byline in any of the ones he posted on "his" website (in fact if you search for the real domain owner of frogeye.smugmug.com you get an error message). He has agreed that he has no intellectual property rights to the material in question. Finally, if he did hold the copyrights to every single article he has posted from 17 different publications written by no less than 20 different authors, I shoudl expect the treat of a lawsuit in which case I would kindly remove the offending material.

Since I have actually tried contacting the publisher of Autocar and others are now defunct, I consider most of the material to fall under the category of "orphan works" with the exception of the material from road and track since they currently publish a volume containing all of their sprite road tests, and they may not be too happy with what Gary has done here since he is costing them money by offering their material for free (they wouldnt like it on my website any more than his for that matter which is why i wont tell them).

The material I copied was old magazine articles gary didnt write. Dont forget that. THEY ARENT HIS

"Regardless of the original source of the images and whether you have a licence to use them or they are "orphan works", under uk law a collection of images in itself as an original compilation is subject to your copyright as the compiler, is also likely to be subject to "database rights" and your own original text is automatically copyright to you: all of which are enforceable throughout the EU. I've brought successful action for clients on far lesser examples."

I don't think thats inforcable considering that if I had access to some of the same articles and scanned them myself. . . Anyway if its the images taht are the problem then I can remove the pictures from my webpage. No big deal. The articles I posted are all in text format by now. I could have sat infront of the computer typing it out long hand and we would still be in this situation. The fact that I am gettin responses like this tells me that folks would rather judge me without bothering to visit my website.

Yes I know its a bit buggy at this point, html editing is not my speciality. I made the mistake of building it in iWeb and right now I'm bit stuck with it. Research and wrenching is what I am better at. I am trying to learn a new web editor to completely rebuild everything.

I am interested in updating and correcting the family tree and everything else. I have valuable techinacal information and i have tried to describe several componants in detail and suggest service providers to do some restoration work.

I don't care if you respond to my enquireis for assitance or not since few on this forum have responded anyway. I have had to go it alone and I created my website so that some day there would be centralized knowledge base for spridgets like there is for MGAs.

I could care less if you post my email address gary. Its freely availible on my website anyhow.
sethamosjones@gmail.com

I used to use mgmidget1971@gmail.com but hotmail couldn't compete with gmail since gmail I can access with my mail program. I also used to use gan5ub91179g@yahoo.com but I gave up on it. I think its dead anyway. there were also a few email accounts I had from colleges I attended years ago but I don't even remember them.

I consider myself a spridgetguru in training. how many time sto I have to say that. Anyway, I am done with you. Gary seems unintersted in getting credit so I won't bother. This religious war has gone far enough, and I am sick of being badgered and attacked by judgemental europeans who don't really have a clue what is really going on.
S.A. Jones

"I shoudl expect the treat of a lawsuit in which case I would kindly remove the offending material."

Again looking at it the "american" way.
Where the only thing we want is a bit of modisty in the way you act and comunicate (that includes the arogant name)


Sorry to the other Americans on here for the reference
Onno Könemann

"I am sick of being badgered and attacked by judgemental europeans who don't really have a clue what is really going on."
easy solution there - be polite and well-mannered - ask first ! (and try not to be so parochial, you must have heard of the global village)
David Smith

Mate, you need to pull your head out of your ar*e. If you'd asked there would have been no upset, it IS common decency - regardless of whether he owns copyright, he put the time and effort in to scan and upload the stuff and the least you could do was ask. If you had then there is a good chance there would have been no problem! Maybe I'll start a new website, therealspridgetguru.com and start by copying all the content from yours shall I? After all, it's all public domain, and you don't own the rights to most of it?

Barney, and the MGA Guru website takes information from all who provide it and incorporates it into his website, whereas all I've seen from you is arguing about how much better what you've done is than everyone else. I understand that you are trying to create a similar website, and I think that's an excellent idea and could become a great resource if you stick at it. But a more open and humble approach to things would help you a great deal.
AndrewF

Obviously I would have said yes if he'd asked. But that's the problem.
Also it's not a "Feud" " not "European" and certainly not a "relgious war"! Quite how an issue about good manners becomes any of the above just daft.
Gary & Gaps

Obviosly Gary hasnt also taken the time to type out the articles (which I believe is rather useful).

Neither has Gary chosen to present the images in a way which is entirely legible (in at least one case you can't read a thing on the page so gary if you have that in hardcopy please try again its rather irritating to find a promising piece of literature and be unable to enjoy it due to bad resolution. I refer to the "Motor Life april 1959 issue")

I have taken the time to clean them up and type them out. Now I don't believe it would ultimately be of help to anyone for the version on my website to go away. Instead I would consider it better to give the "enhanced" versions to Gary and let him decide what to do with them (I would be happy to email them to him if I had a good email I will try what I have).

I no longer feel that it is worthwhile to have a PDF of the article availible on my site since a user could visit Garys website to see that. That leaves the images formatted into the text of the offending articles. If it its the will of the poeple of this forum they will be removed since the scan of said images may be garys copyrighted material. I would rather not remove said articles from the site completely, since having it in text allows the article to be found via search engine a lot better and likewise if there are no pictures someone may wish to view pictures and that arrangement would help them find Gary a lot better.

The question then is wether the copyright has been abandoned. I don't believe it has been abandoned for R&T since they are still being sold and published as a book. so I am unsure what to do with those.

I would like to keep things clean as much as possible as far as copyright is concerned. I am trying to figure out how best to go about it. I have no clue what kind of disclaimer should be on my website with regard to vintage articles. i have removed the portion of text lifted from garys site. What I wrote in its place is a tad long and I have no clue what it shoudl really say. In truth, the only stuff only site that I feel I have a right to is the tech articles. I have hard copies of some ads, and Midget road tests that I paid money for but I feel those belong to the publishers and authors and by posting them, I feel I am merely providing access to them for others benefit and don't feel I should have a say in what happens to them next. If I am wrong correct me.

I apologize and ask that some resolution can be met. I had thought that Gary would have either initially said no to what I was trying to acchieve or found it impossible to transfer the files to me had he said yes. This was a mistake.
I am sorry for that. Take my suggestions into consideration, tell me to remove all the articles duplicated on garys site, or give me permission to keep things as is. I will comply.

As for the geneology. I have taken suggestionsand edited it it from time to time. i expanded the MG section just yesterday. I have been busy as of late writing about things I am doing with my car and that has taken a great deal of time. Please don't expect me to be able to do too much at once.

The name was inspired by a freinds site. he even suggested it. I paid in advance for 20 year rights to the URL and I figured that with 10 years of experience wrenching on it, 10 years before that helping my dad wrench it would give me a good start and that by the time I have to renew 20 years later, I may be known as an expert.

Some of the reaction to me dates back to the aldon distributor page I posted some time ago. I am looking for a dyno tuning place around here that knows how to adjust Lucas 45d curves and get everything perfect. I have driven it for some time since the article was posted without any problems to the engine or ignition system. i never said it would give you peak power. I don't appreciate rash judgements being passd on all the tech articles as a whole. that is simply not fair. I have made templates of where to drill holes on the fender for Leyland badges, photographed anddescribed the inner workings of smiths guages and many other things.

I have been much better recieved on other forums and it really sucks that ever since the aldon article I seem to have been having issues with folks on this one. I do accept constructive criticsm. I am also trtying to make do with little to no budget to work on the car with and no functional garage. Anyway, my wife is nagging me to take her to work so I GTG. let me know where I shoudl go from here. Please be constructive. Any demand to delete the whole of Spridgetguru.com will be ignored.
S.A. Jones

Other forums?

Maybe you didn't "lift" items off friends of theirs on there

F F S

How much does it take to tell you?

Gary ONLY wanted you to perform a simple act of courtesy

So did WE

No more no less

If it is too hard to understand

t o u g h

Maybe this isn't your game...

Good night




I AM out

Bill 1

Look bill. What is done is done. I just what to know what to do NOW.
S.A. Jones

What to do now?

We in Britain have an excellent expression but the website would not allow me to write it.
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Sorry to be an ignoramus but can someone direct me to Gary and Gaps site so I can look at any stuff.

Dave
Dave Price

Ok Seth your last but one post sound very conciliatory and there is an apology in there somewhere too. However having just checked your website, it looks to me that the pdf's of the magazines articles remain there, which I can live with. But there seems to be no mention of the source of most of the adverts and articles. By that I mean where you got hold of them. You didn't buy them, they clearly came from my pages on Smugmug.com from magazines which I bought, scanned and uploaded.
You are correct that I don't hold the copyright for the articles and I will take my chances on that, but you seem to have a links page called "Sites with helpful Tech and historical info"
If my site had no helpful historical info, you wouldn't have felt the need to copy the images of the adverts and magazine articles from it. But if they were helpful, (and they clearly were or you wouldn't have used them). Then I think that it is only fair that the source of those particular images are acknowledged on your site. Surely that is what your "Sites with helpful Tech and historical info" links section is all about.
As with most things when someone wants somthing, it is always preferable to ask rather than to take, because the former usually gains cooperation and the latter will most probably be met with resistance.

For those who are interested, the link to my website is http://www.frogeye.smugmug.com
Gary & Gaps

I was waiting for a response from you Gary. Now that i have it I will include a link to you on several of my pages. I am working on updating the website today. If all you want is credit done. If you want the pdfs gone down they come.
S.A. Jones

Hi Seth
Good to see all is being put right
I'll try to make time and make a sheet of how the pre-war MG tree should look it is comming there but is still a bit rough
Onno Könemann

Onno
I basically followed the tree I found here
http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/history/hs105.htm

Now this was a factory publication but the resolution was so bad I couldnt even read some of it. I think maybe off to the right is where the tigress cars are but I couldn't be sure. Also with the triumph 1500 engine. From what I can find so far, the 1500 Spitfire was released within a month or so of the 1500 Midget possibly even after!. That's why I have it arranged the way I have at present. There may be a better way.
S.A. Jones

Bugger,seems like ive missed something lively on this bbs. :)

Not having a sprite mk1 but a midget I can realy appriciate your site Seth, great work!

Its nice to see people like Gary and Seth making these sites, its something I like to do too but am to lazy for to actualy do it.
"Horses for corses" and all that. :)
Arie de Best

"Also with the triumph 1500 engine. From what I can find so far, the 1500 Spitfire was released within a month or so of the 1500 Midget possibly even after!. That's why I have it arranged the way I have at present. There may be a better way."

Errr NO!

The Spitfire 1500 was released some TWO YEARS earlier for the US Market than for the Rest of the World Market. Ie in 1972. So it WAY precedes the Midget 1500.

You still have the genealogy wrong. Spitfire MkIV should feed into RWA Midget (owing to the donation of its steering rack) as well as into Spitfire 1500.

Spitfire 1500 should thgen feed into Midget 1500 owing to the donation of engine and gearbox.
Deborah Evans

Deborah, no need to shout.

Anyway a little fact checking may be in order since this is unfamilliar territory to me and I like sources being cited.

I searched the part number for the spitfire rack

I did the same with the midget racks, and came up with different numbers. Rcogniuzing that this merely proves that Triumph and the Neuffeld group had different numbering systems I tore through my modest library. Daniel Stapleton makes mention of it in how to Powertune Midget and Sprite. Perhaps more importantly Terry Holler makes mention of it in "Original Sprite and Midget" (page 108 in my edition). In any case, You are probably correct on thatone and I will make the revision tonight and post it sometime soon.

According to Holler, the first 1500 midget rolled off the line in September of 1974, and according to Anders Ditlev Clausager's book Sprites and Midgets the complete story, the midget 1500 was launched in October of that year.

I don't have any triumph spitfire books but here is what I find online,

"Two years before the end of MkIV production, Triumph had already introduced the 1,493cc engine in MkIV's for the US market, albeit with a single Zenith Stromberg carburettor. Changing the design to conform with US emission regulations had robbed so much of the old engine's power that an increase in swept volume was badly needed.

In December 1974, the 1,493cc engine was also introduced on other markets, in a mildly reworked model called the 'Spitfire 1500'"
http://www.triumphspitfire.nl/spithistory.html

Wikipedia claims that the 1500 engine was introduced in December 1974.

http://spitfire.classicsportscars.eu/ claims the same as wikipedia. Therefore there is a bit of confusion.

In essence on the 1500 we are both right. The 1500 name may not have actually been used before 1974 (the 1975 modal year) and still have had the 1500 engine in teh US market at least. What that would mean is that the Midget 1500 is a derrivative of the MKIV not the 1500 since the last two years of MKIV production had a 1500 engine.
S.A. Jones

LOL Seth
Even the company got it wrong!
Onno Könemann

the racks are a funny one, myself and my dad both have 1972 RWAs, some 2000 chassis numbers different, mine being the slightly older of the two. Mine has the triumph rack, his has the other (morris?) one.

must be some overlap there, it's very strange. He managed to order the wrong rack, we were both surprised when the truimph one didn't fit.

so the actual 'changeover date' may be blurred a bit...
Rob Armstrong

Firstly Seth I wasn't shouting I was emphasising (since this BBS doesn't seem to have the ability to use italics).

Secondly there is much confusion about the Spitfire MkIV/1500 on this side of the pond. Many writers refer to the 1500 as the 'improved' MkIV because it retained the same body as the MkIV.


The MkIV and the 1500 are 2 very different cars, so much so that (as a Spitfire afficionado) I prefer to call the latter the MkV.


Whatever the car was called from 72 onward in the States, it remains the de facto position that it was a Spitfire 1500.

Don't forget also that your website is accessible worldwide so saying the Midget 1500 is a derivative of the Spitfire MkIV is (at best) confusing when the MkIV is known around the world as having the large crank 1300 motor and 3 rail gearbox, and at worst inaccurate since BL referred to the 1972 US cars as Spitfire 1500.
Deborah Evans

Seth.... Guru....?

"Anyway a little fact checking may be in order since this is unfamilliar territory to me and I like sources being cited"

Naaa, I think not.... (but well done for recognising Gary for ALL his hard work and efforts).

Vote Deborah for Guru.....!

Mark.

:-)
M T Boldry

I've revamped the tree based on what I said before.

This side of the pond there may be confusion. I'll have to look it up to make sure. What you say may be right, but I need sources. Maybe I can get some help on the triumph forums.
S.A. Jones

Sigh. You do realise Seth that the tone of your last post is rather abrupt and could be taken to be insulting because you are, in effect, saying that I don't know what I am talking about.

So Spitfire dates:

4MkI : October 1962 - December 1964
MkII : December 1964 - January 1967
MkIII : January 1967 - December 1970
MkIV : November 1970 - December 1974
1500 : November 1974 - August 1980

In the US Market the MKIV had its 1296cc motor replaced with the 1493cc motor from December 1972, it was then marketed there as the Spitfire 1500 from July 1973. Note: the earlier 1500 cars retained the 3 Rail all synchromesh gearbox from the Spitfire MkIV whereas the later 1500 cars had the Single Rail gearbox common to the Midget 1500, Morris Marina, Triumph 1500 RWD, Triumph Dolomite. Unfortunately no data now exists as to date/chassis numbers when the gearbox changeover occurred but presumably this coincided with the marketing strategy of JULY 1973.

Source: British Heritage Motor Centre, Gaydon.
Deborah Evans

My last post wasn't meant to be insulting. I just needed to make sure on my own. Yesterday I posted an inquiry on the TriumphExperience forums and got some more info.

http://www.triumphexperience.com/phorum/read.php?8,698948

What you said here is also helpful.

The way the tree is arranged now is an attempt to show that the 1500 engine was used in the US before the rest of the world (while the rest of the world got the 1300) and that the global Market 1500's are a development of both the MK IV and the US Spec 1500 or (MKIV 1498cc).

When I update my page next i could list it as a Spitfire 1500 US Export or federal.

S.A. Jones

This thread was discussed between 20/05/2011 and 08/06/2011

MG Midget and Sprite General index

This thread is from the archives. Join this live forum now