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MG Midget and Sprite General - roll over bar

Hi Guys, thinking of fitting a roll over bar to my Midget, what do you think are the merits of this, What would be the plus and minus of this add on.

cheers Jack.
Jack New Forest

The merits are that if the car rolls over (and the roll bar is fitted properly) it could save your life.
The minus points as far as I'm concerned is that it has largly spoilt the look of my car, made it harder to get in and out and with my rear cage has effected my rear view.
However as I have now seen enough cars roll over in competitions which I'm participating in that it is a no brainer for me to have one.
Gary & Gaps

A good quality one may be a life saver. what other reasons do you need?
If you enjoy your car on the road it's a no brainer, unless it's a concours car.. there are too many Audi and Volvo drivers who drive like they are immortal!
d cusworth

Thanks, guys, I get your point Gary, they don't enhance the look of the car, but I think the safety points could sway me.

Jack New Forest

I had one but found that it prevented the seats reclining to the angle I had got used to for comfortable driving, so ultimately I removed it and the car feels roomier somehow without it.
Also, another correspondent said he would only use a roll over bar in a Midget if he was belted in with a full race harness as your head is always very close to the bar and if you are not well restrained you could hit your head on the bar quite easily.
I will just take the risk not to have one as I am not a racer and the car looks better without it and is also more comfortable.
The choice is yours!
JB Anderson

Spridgets are much better handling cars than Triumph Vitesses but considering that a good friend rolled his car at a simple auto test event when he got a wheel into the grass is enough for me to be glad I have a roll bar in my Midget. Fortunately he wasn't injured except for some scrapes and bruises, it could have been much worse. I went for a more competition look for the car so that the bar would blend into the basic style better, but even on a standard Spridget a bar doesn't have to look out of place. Yes most bars that you can buy do interfer with the seating a bit, if that's a problem for you then consider having a custom bar built that will allow you more room.


B Young

well

depends ... in a roll over do you think the windshield will hold up and not collasp

or do you have a seriusly hard skull that can withstand heavy impacts

HAHaha

In all seriousness and joking aside... 2 things to consider would be

1. if you slam your head into the roll bar during a collision...not involving a roll over, how seriously messed up are you going to be.

2. Do you REALLY want to survive a serious crash in a midget?

There are life syles far worse then dying. I used to belive that the AFTER Life in a bad midget crash would be so bad to the point your going to wish you had not survived the crash... veggie brains or dead below the neck kind of life sytle to look forward to... but surprising ive found over the years alot of people walk away with minor scratches and bruises .. So In that light Ive decideed to install a roll over bar... and take a chance that a bad crash will leave me with only a few dings... certianly worth continuing to live. so the roll bar is a good thing in my opinion
Prop

Funny - question 2 was one I was discussing the other day, and my answer to it was a sure and certain no!

On a serious note - you really need to measure up and see where your seats fit - and, if you've changed to MGF seats, then forget it ......
rachmacb

Thanks guys and Rachel, I guess it's close to 50/50 at present, I can see both points of veiw, not good to look at! could save your life! slight obstruction! nice one Prop, I'm not a tall guy so when I'm in the car my head is probably just below the windscreen, but I woud'nt want to trust the screen saving me.

Well I think the jury is still out on this one, I'll review the evidence and see if someone can come up with a closing comment to sway the jury!

cheers Jack.
Jack New Forest

The screen on the Vitess is steel, the one on your Midget is an aluminium casting and steel glass channels. Here's what the Vitess screen did to help my friend. Nothing but get mashed flat instantly.

B Young

They are life savers as long as you padd them or where a helmet!
A clear cage will bash your scull when you get hit from behind.

Though padded or with a helmet they are life savers
Onno Könemann

Ouch... that was a fine-looking Vitesse. Did he repair it afterwards?

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

Roll bar with proper seat or padding is a no brainer safety wise! Seen a good few midgets roll and driver walk away, without one your relatives will be visiting the morgue.

l snowdon

Yup - no brainer to me! If you pardon the pun...

When I got my Midget the first thing I bought and fitted was a roll bar. At least you have a chance of surviving a roll over (which can happen at relatively low speed without a collision). You (or your family) wouldn't want to know that you could have walked away unharmed but for a crushed skull.

Agree padding is a good idea even though unsightly on a road car.

I'm also fairly certain a roll bar stiffens the overall structure too which can only help handling.
Bob T

Not much use against hammers though :0)
Gary & Gaps

Gryf, I understand that Ceicle plans on repairing the car as the damage except for the windshield was minimal. Don't know if he's done yet or not. I thought you might know him as he's one of our local Missouri guys from down around the Joplin-Springfield area and very active around the state. The accident happened at the Vintage Triumph Registry meet last year.
Bob T, padding doesn't need to be too unsightly. I used approved foam padding material and then sewed a cover for it from some vinyl and used velcro to fasten it in place. Easy to remove if you want but creates a nice appearance and easy to keep clean.

B Young

Gary , any photos of your car with roll bar fitted? intersted to see how ts done on a frogeye ..Thanks Roy
R Mcknight

I'll post some tonight but basically the rear supports sandwich the rear shroud. It's the safety devices one.
Gary & Gaps

I've made up my mind it is roll bar for me, well I'll try it anyway see how it goes.
cheers boys.
Jack New Forest

Jack,

I've got an Alley Aerobar (now Safety Devices) - road use only so don't have the additional braces etc.

There is a lot of chat about strength of these units, but they are twin tubes welded together and should be bolted in place with large spreader plares and H/T bolts,the feet being spread to wheel arch and top of heel board, in a roll over they should in my opinion be adequate to turn the car back on its wheels - as I noted road car - not track car.

I've had various Aley aero bars in all my B's and Midgets from the 70's onwards - don't feel safe without one these days. Recovered latest one in black leather to suit interior.

Little problem with seat or seat belts as you may remember from your visit up here.

Regards,

R.
richard boobier

Here are the images that Safety Devices originally sent me. Mine's slightly different as it is only the rear part with a pair of harness loops built in to an additional rear lateral bar

More to follow....

Gary & Gaps

and more

Gary & Gaps

and on mine

Gary & Gaps

and the one I missed out....

Gary & Gaps

There is absolutely no way I can argue against a roll over bar

I've crashed a car (not a Spridget) on the road and the roll over bar was bent enough to at least suggest I wouldn't have been here without it

But still I would not have one that wasn't part of the car for normal road use - sure any form of motorsport you'll need it even if not obliged to have one

I'm more of the school of thought, which could be totally wrong, the more safety you have the more chances you take - with yourself and all those around you - a spike on the steering wheel theory

Having said that I'm a hypocrite as I believe in seatbelts (but not harnesses as they make you drive faster on the road)

For normal road cars some roll bars are fitted for fashion to suggest that 'my car goes so fast I need one'

I repeat I can not argue against fitting one, but if you're not into motorsport and you are particularly worried about safety then any "classic" car particularly a Spridget may not be your best choice

Yet again I'd say fitting one is a good idea and if you feel you want or need one then fit one
Nigel Atkins

well garys is a safe bar, but a bit over kill for the street IMHO.

Personaly I like my roll bar and its looks, its Upside down U - shaped behind the seats attached to the outside corners of the rear shelf and 2 legs that come off the top rail sorta in the mid secton and those 2 legs attach to the rear shelf also

I think its "Kinda" similar to what richard boobier is decribing, but much cooler looking and I think safer

Here is a STOCK photo of what I have ... whats great about this is the top can still be used and even a hardtop as well with out interferance

Prop

and here is what it looks like in the car... agian not my car

although I think mines a tad bit taller then this one

Plus on mine Its angled in such a way that the seat dosnt interfer all that much... the cushion in the seat gets compressed but thats about it... from what I can remember




Prop

Prop

>>>>>>I think its "Kinda" similar to what richard boobier is decribing, but much cooler looking and I think safer<<<<<<<

let me re-phrase that... I think the double bar that richard is discribing is better looking much safer and cooler looking then the USA version Of what I have. Im a fan of the Uk double bar roll cage design

Prop

Prop, you mean this one?

Arie de Best

Prop, anymore pictures of that rollbar of the yellow midget?

Its kinda what im looking for, like Bills but then without bar to the front.
Bills is also lower then the normaly available ones and although the higer the bar the safer I still need a lower one as it needs to go more to the back of the car because of my seat-backrest position.
More to the back but the hood still has to be able to go up&down.
With impact at the rear of the car my head still needs to stay safe from the bar too.
Arie de Best

Arie & Prop,

Here is a photo of the bar you referred to installed with pad on our MK III.

Regards,

Larry C.

Larry C '69 Midget

yepp Arie and Larry, thats the one ...

Sorry Arie,

I did a google image search and found that photo, But Ill take some pics of mine tomarrow and post them here for you

it will be late afternoon to early evening


Prop
Prop

Prop, you dont have to as ive seen yours before and the yellow midget your showing is a differrent one then yours.
I too like the looks of yours but to me its to close to the headrest and so my head.
Looking at the yellow one I dont know if that would be clear enough for me either...

On the photo you can see how far to the back the seatbackrest is, i like that driving position(and need it at 1.85mtr).

Arie de Best

Arie, with the seat back at that angle you're just not going to have room for a roll bar and still clear the hood. I'm 6'4" (1.92M) but like a bit more upright seating position and have some room behind the seat. Looks like you'll have to just be very careful unless you can alter your driving position. By the way, a very nice interior in your car.
B Young

Thanks Bill.
You see the diffeculty on this, I guess mine needing to be placed more to the rear has to be lower to anable the top to be lowered.
I realise lowering a Roll over bar is not ideal and loosing more of its safety every cm its dropping in higth.
I guess a lower roll over bar is still better then no roll over bar. :)

Bill, looks like yours is lower too then normaly on a spridget.
Usualy they stick out a bit above the window frame.


Arie de Best

Bill, I know ive asked before but cant find them anymore but can you please show me some more profile/side pictures of the car and rollbar.
Arie de Best

There's a minimum competition requirement for a roll bar to be 5cm above the top of your helmeted head (OK a bit more to it than that but that's the gist). I've had a bar that complies under both folding and removable hoods, and Mk2 Sprite hardtops so it's easily possible.

Having it so low as some of these compromises the point of it IMO.
Max max-at-midgetmax-dot-com

Has anybody tryed roll over hoops on their spridget?
How safe can they be?
You see them a lot on cobra's and modern cars.
Modern cars have build-in roll over protection in their windowframes but still you see plenty hoops behind ther seats: mx5/miata, Mgf, BMW Z4 ...
Arie de Best

Arie,

This design might allow full use of your seats, but I would like to see a brace routed to the rear parcel shelf on each side. Perhaps you could use this as a style-guide?

http://stores.ravenwingperformance.net/-strse-1058/HARD-DOG-EXTREME-ROLL/Detail.bok

Larry C.
Larry C '69 Midget

Max, im not going to compete with my car except for classic rallying.
Its more for my own (road)safety so im not restricted by competitionrules in the design.
These competionrules do however give the best safty when aplied.
Im in the grey-zone of functional-pratical-looks.
But what an intresting project, im thinking about it for 3 years now! :)

thanks Larry,
that is one of the ideas I had in mind but feared it wouldnt look very good, seeing it live on your photo kinda proves what I thought.
Like you said, maybe usefull as basis and alter the design to my specifications.

MGF hoops, a bit like the cobra's

Arie de Best

Cobra's:

With headpadding-bracket?

As it is its not very usefull to a spridget but might help get to the final design. :)

Arie de Best

Roll bar is importent - it saves lives.

It is scaring how easy the car rolls - if you are unlucky and more unfortunat factors ad up.

Look at top video:

http://midget-62.blogspot.com/2010_11_01_archive.html

I'm driving the green Midget in front of videocar.


Ole Aaen
Ole Aaen

Arie,

You will find this intresting...I like this design of the roll over hoops... Or as I call the Batman hoops

The photo is for an MGB.... and this is the guys website... ut Id think it could easily be adapted to fit the midget...

check it out ... see what you think, IMHO Id rather adapt something like this then to start from scratch.

I have to admit, the plex glass wind blocker is a bit tacky, but I coucld certianly see its hidden valuse.., Id probably velcroe the thing on so it could be easly removed for a nicer look.


www.hotantiqueauto.com

For some reason I cant get the above link to work, but this is where I found him orginally (link below)... Im getting a "Connection diconneted error" when I click the above link, So Im not sure what thats about...so good luck with it.

http://board.amgba.com/index.php?topic=356.0

Prop

Prop

HAHAHA ... Now Thats what I call a BIG OPPS on my part !!!,

Sorry about that! Did you read the last line??? I kinda sceamed over the artical and missed it the 1st time.

Still Id think something like this could be made to do what you want Arie, to be both funtional as well as good looking... it may take a little kicking the tires and some head scratching with someone like Peter Moore from ireland... Im guessing he should be just now waking up from the green holiday it is march 20th over there LOL.

But Arie, In my opinion, this has to be do-able for what your objectives and goals are .

Prop
Prop

Prop, it defenetly comes near to what i had in mind.
I too cant open his website... out of buisnes already? ;)

Did you read this: "You should be aware that my roll bars are to enhance the appearance of your car only and should not be used as a protective device. "

A bit useles for safty then...
And with those winddeflectors it looks a bit girly... :)

Im not taking a roll bar, cut it and reweld on it as I believe that is costing its strength.
What im planning to do is design it, take it to a proffesional cagebuilder and let him do the math and strength/safety.
Building in winter 2011/12.
Arie de Best

Hahaha ... Exactly Arie, thus my last posting...LOL.

My guess is "He is out of business also".. I dont think there is a high demand for a roll bars that looks great, but will fold up like a wet cardboard box upon impact...Still you have to laugh at that concept. LOL

But I have to say, I think you could use that same idea (Just the Idea) as a working base and begin the R&D from there... I really think a little creative engineering on something like that could work...

but yes, I to have to agree,, I "wouldnt" buy that one and then try to make it functional... that would be a huge waste of both money and time.

"IF" it where actually funtional, (which it is NOT) then it would be worth having the legs cut off at the correct angle and some good welding to a thick steel plate. for a nice looking bat-mobil roll over bar that would actually be funtional for your neds ...But clearly NOT the case here.



Prop
Prop

Hey ....Jack New Forest, Hampshire, United Kingdom,,,



I found this on the classifieds of our BBS...

I think its worth dropping a dime to have a look ...

Roll over Bar

Roll over bar in good condition (looks like MGOC) , complete with achor plates and bolts. Came out of my 1972 midget. £50.00 ono
Contact: CW BRACEY Contact by email
alresford Hampshire United Kingdom
Tel: 07802 788715

Advert placed 26/02/2011 at 21:50:43 (UK time) Category: Midget MKIII


Good luck

Prop
Prop

"Came out of my 1972 midget"


Not sure I would buy a "used" Roll over bar, I believe they can only be used once... LOL!!!
Arie de Best

ROFLMAO.... Good one Arie !


Heck ...Its still good on the one side, and the other side thats dented in.... Well, its just more arrow dynamic. that way.

Besides, Im sure that blood and scalp hair will just wash right off.


seriously .. what do you expect for 50 lbs

Hahaha

Prop
Prop

Arie...

Your up awful late arent you? Waiting for the sheep to come home? haha... Animals, all you can do is kill 'em and eat 'em

Its about 7:30 pm My time... freaken raining scence about 3pm... so my day is shot.
Prop

Arie, I built my own bar from a main tube intended for an MGB that I modified and added the extra bracing to. It is really too low, but if you move the bar to the rear it has to be lower to clear the folding top on a later Midget as my MKIII. I think with an early car with the stow away hood then you could make it a bit higher. Here's a couple of photos of the bar out of the car and a bit more of a profile shot.

B Young

Second photo

B Young

Thanks Prop, I have bought the roll bar from Chris, when fitted I'll post a pic, I seem to have opened a can of worms with this thread but it all makes good reading, It will be interesting to see how many people fit roll bars after seeing Ole (Denmark) video of car turning over.

cheers Jack.
Jack New Forest

And if you want to see it from my point of wiew:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PaYHk1r1Ps


Ole
Ole Aaen

Can anyone suggest a source for suitable padding for a roll bar?

Chris H (1970 Midget 1275)

Chris,

I used armaflex pipe insulation covered with a vinyl sheet secured with velcro strips for the rollover bar, and the (smalled) metal hood frame bars themselves. Here is a link where you can check the product line.

http://www.armaflex.net/

Regards,

Larry C.
Larry C '69 Midget

I used a foam padding specifically designed for use with roll bars. There are now two types, the original which is a lower density and about 1.5" thick on the thick side.(It's made with the center hold for the bar offset) and a newer style high density pad that is about half that thick, much neater. I installed the pad without any clamps or tie wraps and sewed up a vinyl cover to hold it in place.
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Roll-Bar-Padding,896.html
If you plan on running any track days or racing then check the rules and see whay type is approved.
B Young

I really like the look of those "batman hoops" does anyone know if you can buy them in the UK for a '68 midget or will i have to see if i can get them manufactured somewhere?
Jamie Watt

Wow, this thread is long, as I have yet to comment on it I will chuck in my two penneth just to make it a little longer. I haven't read all the posts (my life isn't that dull yet!) so my apologies if I have repeated anything!

If you intend to go racing don't they sometimes specify what type of roll bar padding to use? On my university single seater build we were forced to change our nice soft pipe insulating foam for rock hard FIA grade stuff that did nothing to soften the blow and was as good as hitting your head on the steel bars.

Also, why not take example from F1 drivers from the 50s and 60s who didn't wear seatbelts as they thought it safer to be hurled from the car in the event of a big crash (rather than be trapped in the car!) That way you don't need a roll over bar! :-)

Malcolm
M Le Chevalier

Thanks Bill.
With you behind the wheel I notice the rollbar is a lot lower then your head. :)
Not acceptable to racing, not ideal for a roadcar but still better then nothing...
Does make you wander if you want to wear a harness... it will trap you to your seat so you cant dive your head in the passengerside when you flip over...

Who ever said its easy to modify? :)
Arie de Best

Arie, since that photo was taken I've changed the driver's seat to a racing model that seats me much lower in the car. My head is now just about even with the top of the bar when I'm not wearing my helmet. I know I'm taking a chance wearing a full harness but it supports me so well that I feel it's worth the risk in trade for the increased control I feel, especially in the hard corners. I don't race the car on a road course, but have run a few autocross events and have passed inspection there with the new seat and roll bar.

B Young

Hey jamie,

If you look back at some of the banter between Arie and myself, you will see that the batman hoops are for looks only... and are not a safty device.

but Id think a pro fabericator could make something like that ... that would be funtionalble


Im guessing that company that made them is now defunct

Prop
Prop

I keep thinking I should put my roll over bar back in... trouble was I rebuilt my seats then every time I went over a bump it smacked me in the back of the head. Kind of thought that I probably had more chance being hit from behind and then braining myself on the bar compared to rolling the car.

Maybe I need to modify my seat cushions....
TonyJH

I spoke with a chap who advertises that he does race prep in midgets and (although I can't remember who he was now) he was a safety devices rep - when asked he stated if I paid him he would put on in my midget - however he advised me not to as the cage would be more likely to kill me than a crash??

I'm still wondering whether to add one in my 'K'

JOn
Jon White

Was it Robin Lackford?
Gary & Gaps

Jon
That is because you are likely to bash your skul in in a crash.
Unless you use padding or a helmet.
Onno Könemann

This thread was discussed between 15/03/2011 and 28/03/2011

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