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MG Midget and Sprite General - Roll Bar/Cages

Hi,
Does anyone know what size of tube needed for roll cage for midget.
I am planning to race a 1500 next year in either the Midget Challenge or HSCC 70's Roadsports.
The blue book says 45 x 2.5, or 38 x 2.5 for roll cages/bars approved before 1.1.95, would prefer to use the 38 dia but not sure what the blue book means.
Any idea's

R
Cheers
Mike Read
M.W Read

I think the blue book means 2.5mm walled pipe of 38 or 45mm diameter

Mind it is more than 10 years since iI was racing and using the blue book. :)
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

I seem to recall other similar threads... That the pipe has to be drawn... Aka no seams....i think thats why there cheaper to purchase then to build your self

Prop
Prop

Would also recommend that you check as there seem to be a whole load of new regs being introduced in next year! I haven't heard about roll cages, but lots of other ones seem to be resulting in alot more money ........
rachmacb

Mike, I think that unless you really know what you are doing with cages you should leave well alone and just hand over the money. Commercial ones have a lot of experience behind them and it's a no brainer IMO.

Home made cages attract unwanted attention from scrutineers.

and no, I don't sell roll cages!

Max max-at-midgetmax-dot-com

We'll be buying a Full Cage shortly for the Junior Team car and we'll be using a Safety Devices manufactured cage.

Our previous cage was from Aley Bars (who I think Safety Devices took over) coped with a multiple barrel roll at over 100mph and the driver walked away from it (eventually) dazed somewhat from the spin cycle. The video we watched of the incident showed that the car landed on the left front corner of the roll cage on two occasions and held strong.

I'd not have been so confident that a home brewed affair would have done that.

No brainer indeed!
Andrew McGee

Wise words I think

I must admit to never building my own cage and fortunately only needed a quality cage once. :)

The last cage I had in a car was amazing and it was tailor made and fitted to the car by a company in the midlands, (unsure now of the name) however the point was that a tailor made cage fitted by experts enhanced the regidity of the chassis and hopefully gave my car the edge.
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

I have the safety devices rear cage in the frogeye and the scrutineers seem very happy with that . However it wasn't cheap as on top of the cost of purchase, the charge an addition £60 for the delivery (on their special pallet!) and it has to be delivered to and fitted by one of their accredeted fitters, who charge full garage rates etc.
Gary & Gaps

Be careful with cages...! I have fitted Safety Devices, Roll Centre and mad custon cages for other cars. Unless you have the correct mandral benders at your disposal and the correct T45 seamless tubing and you are very proficiant at measuring and welding, I'd steer very well clear... out of the two others I have a preferance for the Roll Centre product. In saloon cars, it was a far better fit than the equivelent S/D cage.

The two tube sizes to ask about, will refer to the main hoop (the larger size) and the rest of the cage in the smaller size.

Good luck with your racing, you'll find the MGCC Midget Challenge a great bunch to race with... :-)

Mark.
M T Boldry

"The two tube sizes to ask about, will refer to the main hoop (the larger size) and the rest of the cage in the smaller size."

Sorry Mark, but that is incorrect. The whole construction must be either 38mm or 45mm tube dia.




What the Blue Book means is that if the rollbar/cage was designed by an Authorised manufacturer prior to 1.1.95 then it can be of 38mm dia, 2.5mm wall thickness seamless tube. If not, then it must be of 45mm dia, 2.5mm wall thickness seamless tube (which is obviously heavier).

So, for eg, if you sourced an Aleybars cage from (say) the late 1980s (and it had the Aleybars sticker on it) and you fitted it to your racer then it would pass scrutineering.

Similarly, if you had a car with an 'unknown' bar but could prove it had passed scrutineering prior to 1.1.95 (eg by retaining the old scrutineering tickets/stickers) then that, again, would pass.

However, if you buy a modern bar (designed after 1.1.95) OR you make your own, then it MUST conform to the later specs.

The SD bar is a rehash of the old Aleybar one so is 38mm (we have one in our Midget). I am not sure about the RollCentre bar however.
Deborah Evans

Deb is partly correct in my opinion.

If you buy a brand new cage that was MSA or FIA approved to the earlier smaller tube diameters then you are buying a certified cage and that meets the blue book requirement as no old certifications are made null and void.

However, some cage certifications changed from 1 Mar 87 in that the floor mounting plates are drilled for three bolts rather than two.

It doesn't matter then whether you have a new cage to the old design or an old cage to the old design so long as its certified except new cages will have plates with 3 bolt holes and old cages may have plates with 2 holes except where a misguided person has drilled an extra hole or its a welded in cage.

Put another way if you buy a secondhand Spridget cage made by Aley bars to RAC Recognition 90 it's race legal with 2 bolt feet or 3 bolt feet and 38mm tubing (all tubes). If Safety Devices make you a brand new cage to the Aley Bars RAC Recognition 90 it must have 3 bolt feet but can still be 38mm tubing.

As far as I know the tubing will be Cold Drawn Steel (CDS). I believe the optional diagonal can be in T45 which is lighter. I'm not aware of a certification of this design of cage in T45 so probably there isn't one but I'm also not aware of how to check whether a painted cage is made in T45 or CDS other than having it taken out of the car and weighed (the RAC Recognition states the weight of the CDS cage).

Proof that a cage has previously passed scrutineering doesn't mean anything any more than presenting and out of helmet does.

If anyone thinks I'm mistaken about any of the above comments I'd be very interested to hear from them on this BBS or an e-mail.

Finally, I don't claim that this information will put your race car on the front row of the grid....
Daniel Thirteen-Twelve

WELL... I disagree with everyone....

just get some shedual 60 pvc black drain pipe and glue it togather scan the little sticker and glue it on the cage and cover it in duck tape and foam

GO HILL BILLY missouri style, HE HA!!!!

Rules are such a distraction to a good time...

Heck ive been hit in the head many times over my life time... And look how ive turned out

Prop


Prop

Prop - I'll be waiting with my magnet!
Daniel Thirteen-Twelve

I don't think his head is metal


but then again perhaps it is

Prop,
protect your head with truck bed liner
N Atkins

Daniel,

IIRC the 3 bolt fixing for the main hoop uprights was brought in in 1988 (although I could be wrong - it could have been as late as 1989). This modification WAS made retrospective - I was racing a Spitfire at that time and remember having to modify the upright fixings (fortunately the bar was one of John Aley's and had mounting feet big enough to (safely) accept the third bolt.

I modified this cage after discussion with a number of Scrutineers so it was not 'misguided'.


WRT to older cages/bars that are 'unknown', I have seen a number pass scrutineering because they 1. Have conformed to the 38mm measurement, 2. Conformed to the 2.5mm wall thickness , and 3. Have been finally accepted as being of an 'Authorised Design' because they had a scrutineering record - they wouldn't have had 'tickets' had they not been an 'Authorised Design'.

To say: "Proof that a cage has previously passed scrutineering doesn't mean anything any more than presenting and out of [date] helmet does."

Is, in my view unhelpful and rather a misdirection because, well, yes it does. This is because, a cage AS LONG AS IT CONFORMS TO THE EXTANT REGS OF THE TIME (and is not damaged) does not have a 'shelf life', unlike a helmet.

A helmet, on the other hand, is 'lifed' because its protection degrades with time. Thus a helmet must: 1: Conform to current regs, 2. Carry an MSA sticker, 3. Be undamaged, and 4. Not be 'life expired'.


That's not really the same as a rollbar/cage.
Deborah Evans

Deb,

The Midget roll bar certificate I have states that from 1 March 1987 all six floor fixings incorporate plates with 3 bolt holes.

The modification to having plates with 3 bolt holes rather than 2 bolt holes was NOT retrospective and you've provided no evidence to prove it was. On the other hand I have a copy of a Midget roll bar certificate that was supplied to me by the MSA as being a valid certificate and that certificate is clear that pre 1 Mar 87 roll bars will have plates with only 2 bolt holes.

A cage that is of an authorised design is NOT the same thing as a cage with a certificate. If you read the blue book closely you will see that is the case. You don't know why a scrutineer passed a car with any particular roll cage - you can only guess at the reason why. It may be the case that a scrutineer passed a car which had a roll cage with tubes of 38mm design because they recognised it was a design that was certificated with 38mm tubes.

You're also wrong about helmets. Helmets don't have a life, rather it's the standard for the helmet may be withdrawn. However, I see the point you are making and perhaps it is simply if I say just because a car has passed scrutineering many times before doesn't mean it meets all the requirements of the blue book or will be passed when presented on that day. It's also the case that all previous scrutineering stickers and labels should be removed from a car before its presented for scrutineering.
Daniel Thirteen-Twelve

Thanks guys and gals, you have answered all questions and worries,I will be buying one as I don't have the skill or kit to make one, Thanks again
Mike
M.W Read

good explanation about 'lifing' Daniel. I find it really odd that it's a concept that seems to defeat many racers - I've just this week had to explain it in simple terms (and with Max's help) on a similar thread on Ten-Tenths. The more I come across people who don't understand the Blue Book, cannot read or digest Series Regs and Final Instructions, and regularly don't understand running with Safety Cars or even the lesser-used flag signals the more I worry that I'm out there running adjacent to them at high speed!
David Smith

Sorry Daniel but I disagree.

It may well be the case that the Midget Championship managed to avoid the 3 bolts per upright ruling, however, I was racing with both the 750MC and the TSSC at the time and we certainly had to fit 3 bolts. That was certainly not done in '87. It MAY be that the decision was taken in '87 and not implemented until the following year.

If you don't believe me, maybe you should ask them?

Secondly, helmets DO have a 'life'.

Despite the fact that Helmet standards change, I suggest you check your Blue Book. If you do, you will find that the MSA sticker is (or was) only valid for 5 years, over and above changes in standard.

If that is not the case, please tell me why I have been forced to replace my helmet (based upon age) DESPITE it meeting the EXTANT BS/SNELL/FIA stds?
Deborah Evans

At the risk of being flamed by other racers, after the catastrophic roll at Snet the other year with the car battered at all four corner and the top left of the front roll hoop showing sign or scraping as it made contact with the tarmac from a great height.... I'm surprised my roll hoop wasn't condemned.

Nothing had moved, it remained exactly where it was installed and the Scrutes did take a great deal of interest in it and complimented the build of it after such a severe incident. I suppose I could have removed it from the car and reused it in the new to be race car but I took the attitude that it had served it's purpose and we'd sort a new one out as and when required.... like now!

I'd hate to think that if the worst happened again and it failed on the second time it was needed.

Andrew McGee

Hi Deb, you can disagree and you may well have had to fit an extra bolt to the mounting plates BUT that doesn't change the fact that unless a rollcage certification has been withdrawn, and the Sprite/Midget ones haven't, what I've said is correct.

It's also the case that for the Sprite/Midget if you have an old cage with 2 bolt feet that was made like that it's still legal because the certificate, which is still valid makes it legal and it wil remain so unless the MSA withdraw that particular certificate.

I suppose it's possible that 750MC and TSSC had a supplementary reg that required roll cages to have 3 bolts in the feet but that's something different entirely to what either you or I stated above and would only apply to cars running in those specific series at that time.

I think the most likely scenario is that no-one is ever in possession of a roll cage certificate for their car and are unaware of what the regulations actually state so just go with the flow.

Helmets don't have an official life and the MSA helmet sticker is valid until it's replaced by something else (a long time ago, more than 5 years ago, helmet stickers were yellow). I've also checked the 2011 edition of the blue book and no-where does it state the MSA sticker is only valid for 5 years. If you can find where it does say either the helmet or the sticker has a life of 5 years please advise the page number.

Irrespective of age if your helmet is in a serviceable condition and meets a current standard there is no reason why it can't be used in motorsport and have an MSA sticker applied to it. In fact if it still has a blue MSA sticker on it and meets the current standard and is in a serviceable condition it's still usable. Who told you that it needed to be replaced? What standard is it? Can you post photos of it?
Daniel Thirteen-Twelve

Hi Andrew,

There is no procedure in circuit racing, that I can think of, to condemn any item. Items with a set service life like a harness,or a fuel tank, go out of life and presenting them should lead to rejection. A roll bar with damage should lead to rejection. But, nothing can be condemned by the MSA and officially only helmets can be impounded and even then only for the duration of the event.
Daniel Thirteen-Twelve

Debs if you raced abroad regularly you'd know that when racing under FIA rules the MSA sticker counts for nothing. If the helmet standard is current (eg Snell 2000) then as long as it's in good condition it's legal. Ergo the helmet is not 'lifed'. For a better understanding of component lifing you could do worse than read up about the aerospace component world...
David Smith

David,

I have raced abroad and seen what the FIA do on numerous occasions having held an International Licence since the late 80's.

I've also seen what the MSA scruts do.


Your point is?
Deborah Evans

..that helmets are not lifed...
David Smith

If you say so.

25+ years of dealing with both the FIA and the MSA then means they (or their scrutineers) have been lieing to me then.

Hey ho.
Deborah Evans

No Deb, they *used* to be lifed, about 25 years ago. They are not any more. Dare I suggest you misunderstood?

Please accept it in good faith, as Daniel is a senior scrutineer and I know the odd thing about helmets too. So that's pretty good sources of info.

Blue label BS helmets were illegal from last year because the standard was superseded. Red labels are being phased out because new standards are better. Snell standards are tightened every five years or so, but the old Snell 2000 is still acceptable in the UK and abroad. The validity will expire but this is not a date on the life of the helmet, it is a date on the life of a standard as things are tightened up. A helmet made in 2000 will still be acceptable in good condition.

FYI I was reading an interesting article on helmet standards and Snell is a new standard every time, not a re-certification. So 2010 is indeed toughr than 2005.

So back to roll cages...I was told to replace my two bolt cage in the Midget in 2003. But I had no certificate to go with it.

Max max-at-midgetmax-dot-com

I ask a question for my own interest - and as it's different from horse competition - do you replace the helmet after an accident or if it has been dropped etc? Also, well, it's me head and needs some protection - but I can't imagine wearing a riding hat from years ago (changes in design/safety/general wear) so would it be the same with Motorsport helmets?
rachmacb

You are supposed to replace a helmet after it has suffered an impact. I once saw a scrutineer impound a helmet in the scrutineering bay after it rolled off the bonnet of a car onto the floor.

You are also supposed to replace your harness after it has restrained you in an impact, I believe.

When I started racing - 1987 - helmets were lifed at 4 years, I believe. Sometime in the '90s, this was superceeded by helmets being lifed by expiration of their approval/homologation.
Dave O'Neill 2

After Nev rolled my Midget there was a paint mark on the back of his helmet from where it touched the cage. Bear in mind there was an inch gap when seated and buckled in to the nearest point of the cage when on it's wheels.

Whilst the Scrutes had had his helmet they did release it back to me but could not destroy it as it is legally someone elses property. So I cut the strap out of it knowing that Nev would have done the same.

They're designed to work once and should be replaced if used for the purpose they are intended for in my opinion.

Maybe we could have kept the previous roll cage and saved £600 on buying a new one, however I know the old car is serving it's purpose in it's new role (or should that be roll) as a Marshalls Training Vehicle at Snetterton where it met its demise.


Andrew McGee

And another...

Andrew McGee

When a helmet has been in an accident the scrutineers will usually remove the blue MSA label which leaves a void marking underneath it. If someone removes the void marking they would then still need a new MSA label before they could use it. Before a new MSA label is applied the helmet gets an extra close look. The chances are that if the helmet has been damaged the damage will be apparent and the helmet rejected.

Always worth a look at the Snell website:

http://www.smf.org/testing

If a harness has been in an accident it should be replaced but there's no MSA rule to be able to enforce this.

The interesting thing about helmet life and standards is that if you buy a helmet a year before a standard is withdrawn you will only have had a year's worth of use out of it in UK Motorsport. This again illustrates there is no such thing a 5 year helmet life.

The other thing to watch with standards, though not something seen every day is where a helmet meets more than 1 standard. The 'other' standard is usually an Sfi standard. So long as one standard is still valid it doesn't matter if the other standard has been withdrawn - it meets a current standard.
Daniel Thirteen-Twelve

But before anyone foams at the mouth about Daniel's last point, there is normally at least a 3 year warning from the MSA. And that's 3 years AFTER you have been able to buy the helmet on the High Street.

E.g. You can't buy a red or blue label BS helmet anywhere, nor a Snell 2000. At least, not new, and I'd rarely buy a second hand helmet. Unless I trusted the vendor, he says covering himself having sold a couple of second hand helmets!
Max max-at-midgetmax-dot-com

Thanks for your answers and, despite insisting on dangerous sports - it's nice to know that the powers that be care more for my head than I do sometimes :)
rachmacb

Just to confirm Debs point about rollcage mountings - Around 87 - 88 I am aware of a couple of Midget racers who were instructed by scrutineers to add a third bolt in the feet of their roll cages... Not a Midget Challenge (or any other championship) directive - just what scrutineers were telling people to do at the time...
James B

So to sum up for MWR:

Don't make your own roll cage unless you know what you're doing, and by asking the question you're saying that you don't

Buy a new one which will be to the correct legislation, don't trust that a second hand one is either safe or legal

With reference to helmets, listen to specialists not paddock gossip. Same with overalls, gloves and boots. Speak to scrutineers and retailers and they will give you good advice (that's me and Daniel then!)

Then you can concentrate on RACING and HAVING FUN, which is what it's all about! Enjoy yourself, Midget racing is very rewarding. You just have to weigh up now where your 1500 will be most competitive or welcome, and that's a whole new thread that may be worth starting :-)
Max max-at-midgetmax-dot-com

And get a certificate for whatever bar/cage is in your car from the manufacture or MSA and take it with you when you present the car for scrutineering. Certificate = no arguments about the legality of the cage!
Daniel Thirteen-Twelve

This thread was discussed between 25/10/2011 and 29/10/2011

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