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MG Midget and Sprite General - Prop cant make it to Midget 50..car is cooking.

Im certian now its not an elecrical issue....Its definatly heat related, and Im not sure how to fix it...oil cooler is a definite yes, As in I need one

I got the little IR lazer heat reading gun, wow, what a fun toy that is

any way I just did a 50 mile drive on the Jeff city La Mans 5 mile track...(hahaha,, itsmy personal track thats all right turns, and 150 yards short of one lap being 5 miles)

so here are the specs I finished with... using the new toy, the ambiant temp was 97 degrees F. and most of the car checked out at about 90 degrees on avg...in side the shop, door open out of the sun

50 miles later here is what I ended with

oil pressure 30 psi from 65 psi at 3500 rpm

water temp 180 degrees F.

oil temp (20/50 weight) 225 degrees F

non connected old coil in engine bay...160 degrees F.new coil in the passanger compartment,,, warm, not hot, I forgot to measure its temp

Dissy body 195 degrees F.

pretronix chip... is showing 180 degees F., but I think the temp gun was picking up residual heat from the surrounding area... the chip was hot, but didnt feel that hot.

carbs..170 to 180 degrees F. pending where you aimed the temp gun, the last 2 laps of my private track JC La mans, they where really leaning out bad, lost about 4 marks on the A/F ratio gauges and lost idle of 1000 rpm, and was idling at 2500 rpm at the end

engine block surrounding the Dissy area is 215 to 220 degrees F.

I did find thaat soaking a rag with water and holding it to the dissy and the Pertonix chip to cool it down made the car roar back to life fairly fast

The Black Hole midget may not want to run vary well after 30 miles, but Ill tell you what, those 30 miles are some of the fastest ive ever driven ... it the past 20 years.... I saw 95 mph accedintially on the 1st lap and still had lots to go, granted I was traveling down hill on the interstate section in 5 th gear, but that zipper sound is so addictive you want to hear it all the time

anyway... guys have fun, Im headed for a cold shower and a gallon of ice water to drink...Im sorta in bad shape, I stopped sweating about 2 hours ago... that aint good.

night everyone... and have fun

prop
Prop

oops I forgot to mention... dissy cap (the platic part) was around 180 degrees F. that was as soon as I lifted the bonnet, it settled back down to around 160 fairly quick.

And yes, I still dont have any feeling in my gas peddle leg below the knee.. its just red and the hairs are crunchy, no longer soft.
Prop

nothing wrong with any of those figures IMO. Oil pressure a bit low, oil temp a bit high but both will be OK if you stick to speed limits. Now haul your ass off to Midget50 you worrier.
David Smith

Oh... I forgot to mention, on a positive note... Aside from the heating issue, I got everything working really perfectly today... so thats a gold star in the win columne

Its great having wipers and washers agian without having to replace the fuse everytime you shut them off, and they work alot faster now also, Im pretty sure I cant see myself ever fixing the park circuit, its to easy just to shut them off in place manually...but I do need to cap the brown /lt green wire that I cut, so it wont short out. so thanks to who ever offered that gem of a nugget of helpful suggestion and advice

Prop
Prop

David,

Im siting here seriously thinking about that temptation, im on the fence, And really want to throw the dirty laundry on the luggage rack in hopes of fiding a 24 hour coin landry along the way

If the numbers had all stayed the same as the 30 mile / 6 laps from earlier today, I would jump in the car and drive the 600 miles right now, but the longer it runs the hotter everything is getting

the ONLY consistancy in the temps is the water temp, its the only one thats holding without issue at around 180, but as far as everything else, the longer its driving the hotter its getting... id fear the oil temp could easily be 250 Degrees with in 100 miles... I cant imagine what it would be after 600 miles... my guess the oil at this point has to be that of sewing machine oil, and I certianly cant handle the thought of throwing a bearing, esp 400 miles from home cause the oil temp went to 300 and the oil pressure dropped to 10 psi


just loosing more then 1/2 my oil presurre (30 psi from 65 Psi) in under 50 miles is scary in my book.


AUGH... I dont know, I could go by walmart and get several case of oil and just change it out ever hour and drive only 40 minutes out of each hour and pop the hood for 20 minutes... and if I only drive 50 mph instead of 75.plus it is cooler driving at night..., doing that would add 6 hours to the trip, so instead of 10 hours id be looking at 16 hours of driving, GEZ, I dont know...that really dosnt sound like fun.

Im thinking about it, and agianst my better judgement for certian.

prop
Prop

Are you saying oil pressure at 3500 is now 30psi? That I'd worry about, everything else sounds OK. Did you start it up again after it cooled off a bit? Is it still the oil/filter that was in it at startup - wondering if some miracle substance you put in it at some point has clogged the filter? Might want to change the filter since it is easy and quick. And it is useful to cut the filter open and look for metal.

And, is the Pertronix still acting up, or was the wet rag before you changed coils? Did you do anything else to the IGN?

If it were me, I'd light it up again after dark, when man and beast are cooled off, and try it again.

FRM
FR Millmore

If it's just a heat issue, just leave the bonnet at home! I don't think Midget 50 will be the same without the Black Hole Midget! Besides, I thought you were supposed to get married to some gal from the Southwest?!!! Hope you get it sorted out,even if you a day or two late. We're still plugging along on our way.
Jack Orkin

Prop, Get your a** up here even if it takes getting the black hole on flatbed!! We can get it sorted for you...T20
Tim Michnay

Get gone - take oil and worry less!

Of course the oil pressure is too low but I'm leaning with Fletcher that it's probably some gunk! Take some with you and listen to the engine.
rachmacb

Not sure why a clogged filter would produce less oil pressure?
But I agree with the others - worry less and drive more!

I suspect that your symptoms are pretty much down to ambient temps at the moment. What fancy rad fan are you using? are you sure it isn't impeding air flow at speed?
Are you using proper oil or one of these new fangled skinny synthetic mixes? They will produce lower oil pressure whilst still working OK.

I would: Richen the fuel mixture slightly to give a cooler running engine. Ensure that your oil level is full to the top mark. Drive to cruise at 5mph less and if possible drive evening or early morning. Fewer things better than driving open-topped in the early hours just as the sun is just rising and the mist is still hanging over the fields and woods.

Go and enjoy Midget50!
Guy

All those gauges and temp reading would make me worry.
That is why I don't have them.

As said above

Worry less drive more!
Onno Könemann

Prop you silly willow

My Midget (1293cc) has been running at thirty five/ forty psi at temperature for ten years at speed. Always gets back to sixty/seventy after a stop drops again after five minutes running

And it has taken me to Le Mans and all round Northern France happily.

Get on the road and stop worriting, follow the advice you have been given


AND

Go and enjoy Midget50!
Bill 1

Prop - I do hope that you're reading this just before leaving for Midget50!

Been thinking and, here's a bit of advice that I was given when I went through a miserable time with cars constantly breaking down on me, so I lost confidence in driving (slight problem when your nearest shop is 2 miles away!), LISTEN to the engine - forget ALL gauges - drive drive drive! The only time you need to worry is when the engine isn't firing properly, and that you can hear.

I wonder that you've gone a little too far on the gauges and relying on them, and forgotten that the car is a few years old - and that, when they were designed, the above was what you did ..... with the vague hope, and spare can of petrol, that the fuel gauge might work!

Take plenty of water - for you and the car - and get out of your pit - and GO to Midget50 - you'll regret it forever if you don't, and, if you break down, well, them's the joys of driving a classic car :)
rachmacb

My first car in 1960's was a Chevrolet, this was a time in the USA when manufacturers began substituting warning (idiot) lights for gauges. My charging light began to stay on all the time at idle. So my father showed me how to check the system and when all seemed in order he did one more thing, got under the dash and pulled the bulb. Problem solved.

Prop,

Out to the garage, and put some black electrical tape over those gauges and drive. Along with all of the other advise here, don't forget your all knowing, and powerful cell phone.

Wouldn't we all want to read the journal from this road trip?

Larry C.
Larry C '69 Midget

LOL Larry - could we cope?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Having said that - I'm looking forward to seeing photos and hearing the reports - seems kinda weird to think that, this time last year, I was sort of thinking that Primerose might have been there ...... amazing to think how life can totally turn around in a year :)
rachmacb

Although, please do be aware that, should you NOT go - I shall be forced to come over to Missouri and beat you up with an engine!!! ;)
rachmacb

Prop
I'd be wacking an oil cooler on it if it was mine
95f ambient temp is getting to be a fairly hot day, everything is going to be hot and at that sort of air temp. a cooler would be good, both to cool the oil and also you get an extra litre of oil circulating as well

Guy raises a good point on what oil have you got in there and he is quite right about the later synthetic oils not suiting older cars when they get hot
What oil are you using
Also one other thing - what is your total ignition timing - If it's too far advanced the oil temp will skyrocket at speed.
Willy
William Revit

God what a night....

I went for it at around 3 AM, it litterially cooked its self and me...hopefully not to death


I got as far as wentsville...about 130 miles away...and it all weent to hell

total fuel vaperization issues, the dissy body temp was 240 and running like crap the last 30 miles on the way, oil temp finally leveled out at 260 at the 100 mile mark, water temp started creeping up agian at the 100 mile mark to 200 from 180, I think what was happening the last 30 miles on the way is the carbs where so hot the fuel leaned way out...more of a fuel vapor then a fuel mist, so that alone Im guessing started massive heat generation part 2

took 2 hours to cool off... the ride home was much better, I drove 45 mph popped the bonnet and tied it down while propped it up with a piece of wood, and stopped ever half hour for 20 min. wrapped the dissy and carbs in a wet rags then wrapped in aluminum foil, and that kept everything in check... just kept re wetting the rags every time I stopped, luckly I had the for thought to re install the coil in the passanger foot well (INSIDE the cock pit)... so no issues there

with the heat flowing over the edges of the bonnet it was an interesting pyckodelic experiance... and Im sure I looked the part, as I devoloped a new clothing line, Im sure it will be all the kids rage in a few years...

Aluminum Foil Pants...hahahaha Thank god the cops didnt pull me over, Id endded up in fulton mental hospital for 2 weeks for sure...

Ill tell ya what, I maybe onto something wet rages wrapped around your legs and hipps then foil loosely wrapped around that and its not a bad ride... granted you feel like you pissed your pants, but i perfer that sensation over the patato backing in an oven experiance.

Oh... Have you guys seen the weather report for midget 50, hahaha, gez, there is NO ESCAPE from this heat and humidity.

last note.. And sorry for not responding to all the above thoughts, just to tired... regualr auto zone oil 20/50, strange only lost 1/2 qt on the way...I didnt see that happening, Id thought much more

well Im beat, like I said what a what, it took ever bit of creativity I could muster...so Im off to bed

Prop
Prop

Tough luck Proppy - we were all praying you'd make it :(

Thinking of you, sleep well x
rachmacb

Sorry to hear you didn't make Midget 50 Prop.
Wow! The americans are going to bake to death at their bash and we all nearly drowned at ours. Ain't life a bitch.

bernie.
b higginson

Lol sure does mean God don't like Midget50s!!!!

Prop was last heard of heading back to his car - so fingers crossed for him :). If anyone deserves to get there, it's got to be him
rachmacb

Guy-
"Not sure why a clogged filter would produce less oil pressure?"
Because the oil pressure is read after the filter, in the main gallery that feeds the bearings. Blocked filter causes a flow reduction to the gallery, so pressure drops.

On B series, there have been many reports of lower oil pressure down to near zero after changing oil and filter, rectified by simply using a different filter. Some filters seem to be very dodgy. In this case, the pressure was good at first, but fell off excessively after running, so blockage is the suspect, as opposed to a bad filter. I've never seen a pressure drop of >50% on a new engine resulting from ambient temps; worn engines or worn pumps yes. But the consequence of bearing failure is so serious, I'd do any easy checks first, then tread lightly for a bit. Hence my suggestion to cut the filter open, and to check things again after a cool down cycle.

I find it hard to believe that Prop put all that go-fast stuff in but no oil cooler. If the oil temp of 260 near dawn with likely 80-90F temps is true, it seems like an issue. I've seen 240 on engines that were overheating in very hot weather, but I don't claim that as comprehensive sampling. He didn't tell us what the pressure was on the way home.

Would help a lot if we could get Prop to report things accurately and completely, but hey - best of luck Prop!

FRM
FR Millmore

Ahh, yes of course!
Guy

Prop,

Agree with Willy, did you verify timing at full advance?

Another link here on hot spark.

http://www.hot-spark.com/hs13br.htm

L.C.

Larry C '69 Midget

Prop just isn't getting help from above is he? :(

Sorry Prop, looks like painting the inside of the engine compartment with thick black truck bed protector wasn't your greatest idea.

How about painting the inside with a silver rattle can and lifting the hinge bolts an inch to let the excess heat out?


And change the oil filter…

I'm really sorry you are having all this blasted trouble.

WE ALL want you to get to Midget50-USA safely

Bill 1

well I WAS going to try agian tonight as Im in the middle of cutting some three - 3 inch diameter holes in each side of the fenders,

But I talked to my machine shop and another guy that has built alot of rice burner race engines and they pretty much say the same thing without an oil cooler and the engine has less then 1000 miles, and the trip is 600 miles one way, and the current weather ... not to try it

I havent checked the timing at the top end 4500 RPM. and see how close to 28 degrees, so a good idea to at least know

Also a good call on the oil filter, Ill certianly do that also

on the way back the oil pressure didnt drop below 30 psi like it did on the way, and the oil temp seemed to level off at 240

Yeah... that rhinno linner seemed like a great idea at the time, but wow, im paying the price now

anyway... Ill post some pics of my fender heat vants when Im done... it should look good. or at the least okay.

Prop
Prop

Good man Prop, don't let it get you down.

Deal with it............

I like the holes in the wings "look" too :)

Have a good one!
Bill 1

Bad luck buddy. I made it in early this morning and I Lee Fox and another guy just got here from St. Louis. It was hot, still is but worth it for sure. We'll take plenty of photos, but won't be the same without Gryf photographing everything, he'e really good at that.
I don't have my photo editing software on this PC so can't downsize my photos to post, but Frank the Midget is here with a pink plaquard from the UK Midget 50 proudly attached to the front. I'll post photos of that when I get home.
B Young

Prop,
Sorry things didn't work out for you. Hope you are able to get it sorted in quick time with no damage.
Chin up lad.
Allan
Allan Jacks

Thanks guys,

Im really down, but thats life in the midget lane, im glad you guys made it okay, did jack orkin and trevor make it in yet

Bill, I know google has an online program called piccsa that can edit them .... Or if you want email the photos to me and ill edit them for you and then email them back.

Prop

Prop

Chin up Prop - at least some of us will get to Midget100 ;)

Look forward to the photos - especially Frank in pink :)
rachmacb

Prop,
Time to put the car on a pick-up (tuck/ Ute?) and get there with it anyway?
Guy

The guys here at the meet offered that option to Prop, if he'd get the car up here they'd get it running! There are some really expert Spridget mechanics here so I don't doubt that they'd be successful. Even have Jeff from Advance Distributors here to help with the pertronix issues.
Trevor and Jack made it fine along with a contingent from Florida that you know. So far haven't see Rich from Washington though. I'll have to check his blog this morning and see if he's posted about his progress.
B Young

Rich pulled in last night and stopped at the establishment that a bunch of us were sitting at.

Tough luck Prop.. Really sorry that you couldn't get it sorted in time. We'll be sure to have a couple for you.
Tim Michnay

Having a great time up here Prop, wish you could have been here to join us! Tourof a cheese factory this morning followed by a catered lunch in a local park and then a group photo. Not as many as our friends in England, only around 50 or so cars, but still having a great time. Took some shots with my lower resolution camera for now that I can post.

B Young

The group of us, I didn't climb the 80 foot tower were the high angle photo was taken.


B Young

Sorry to hear about the bad luck, Prop. All the same, I remember driving my Midget to Indianapolis in '96 when the temps were nearly this hot, and it was brutal. So you missed something great (Midget 50), but at the same time you missed something miserable as well!

My wife and I got back from a vacation trip to North Carolina last week, and the outside temp gauge in my MINI was indicating 100F a goodly part of the way back. Making a trip like that minus aircon and plus engine heat would be torture, and with that in mind, let me add my sincere kudos to those who made Midget 50 in spite of the weather.

FYI, temps later this week are expected to hit a heat factor (adding in humidity) of nearly 115F. I'm starting to feel a little better about my Midge being laid up with a broken spring... it was running a bit hot during local road trips anyway, meaning a long pull like Elkhart Lake would have been out of the question.

Cheers all,

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

Those are great photos....yeah, I wish I was there

Hey 50 to 60 midgets is not a bad showing, you should be able to get lots of runs in on the auto solo

Prop
Prop

Prop,

Don't forget to post when you get the "Black Hole Midget" sorted. Curious minds would like to know what the problem was.

Bill,

Enjoyed the photo's so far, please post more when you can!

Regards,

Larry C.
Larry C '69 Midget

Hey larry

It was just plain ol engine bay heat....the rhino linner makes for a reall good heat insulator but an extrodianairly bad heat conductor..so the heat has no where to go and just starts compounding its self

Currently im making some vary cool fender heat vents...ill post a pic in a few bits as to what the design is, waiting on parts to finish it.

Also trying to track down a "Mocal 13 row oil cooler with AN 10 fittings, stainless steel hoses, a thermostate and samdwhich plate. Thats proving to be hit and miss at the moment, but I got some feelers out...id like to get them all from the same source, to ensure they fit. So ill see. Was hopimg to wrap this up this weekend, so it will be close.

Prop
Prop

here is 2 differant designs im workiing on... Im going with the small perferation design, thou I did like the larger perferation recessed look

there will be 3 of these on each side in the fender top level with the top of the wheel well opening ...its hard to invsion But I think it will look good and be vary funtional at the same time..

Ive scence modded the design a bit more for the round perferation actualy receeds into the casing a few extra mm.

If all goes well this weekend I should have this complete off my list, and if Im really llucky I can have a oil cooler set up over nighted and installed by the end of the weekend

prop

Prop

Prop -
Good idea, but really dumb to block up most of the holes with the stupid strainers. Open area is the name of the game! Go to the big truck supply place and get grommets for installing Trucklite marker lamps. Go to the home supply and get expanded aluminum mesh, or an aluminum replacement air filter for a home HVAC system, or debris guard for gutters. Cut circles out of the filter etc, fit into the grommets. Or just glue the mesh to the inside of the fenders.

FRM
FR Millmore

Prop,

The oil cooler is a good option. I installed a 10-row many years ago, but without the thermostat kit. In the fall of each year I put a strip of foil backed insulation to block air flow, and it works well. The cooler made a 20-psi difference in oil pressure during summer months when driving at crusing speeds, now we have (40 to 50 psi).

Regards,

Larry C.
Larry C '69 Midget

Prop and others FYI, you can have perfectly adequate oil cooler lines using reinforced rubber hydraulic hose and push on JIC fittings for the engine end. The fittings for the MOCAL oil coolers are BST and usually those will have to be crimped on by a hydraulic shop. Can save quite a bit of money over the fancy AN stuff and still do a great job with plenty of spare PSI strength in reserve. That type of hose and fittings are rated up to 300 psi which is well above any pressure it would see in an engine oil system. I've run that type hose and brass fittings on my car for years now without problems.
B Young

I'd thought I'd seen it all then Prop goes and installs a shower tray drain on his car!

I'm with FRM just drill the holes, file the edges smooth and stick a bit of mesh on the inside. I don't understand thermodynamics but would the heat flow from under the bonnet be better if he put in little scoops pointing backwards like the exhaust stubs on Merlin engined fighters?

Matt1275Bucks

Prop,
Sorry you didn't make it, we're having a blast. It's hot enough to roast brats on the sidewalk here.

The rhino liner may be the problem, it's made for pick up truck beds, not engine bays. As such it was probably an irreversable 'mod', but you might see if painting it white will cool thing off a bit

Fender vents of the size and style you have will not do much to cool the enginge bay, IMHO
They don't allow enough CFM;s of air, and will be too low to vent much heat.
A better solution would be to vent your bonnet, like the Healey and A guys do

Phil
Phil Burke

Prop, I hope the vents cure your problem. I'm sure that your car will look like a 53 Buick with three port holes on each front wing.
Personally I really doubt if under hood head because of the rhino lining is much of a problem causer in your case. Yes, I have a large reverse facing vent on the bonnet of my car, but it's also stuffed quite full of a much larger and more heat producing engine and I've never had any heat related issues other than a balky starter solenoid when it was hot.
A tip for those travelling in their Midgets in hot weather that I picked up after my trip to Indy last year. Get some personal cooling devices and drink plenty of water. I have a neck band that soaks up water from my cooler and then cools me by evaporation. Using that along with some sort of head covering of the same type and I stay cool enough to travel even in this heat without any bad heat problems.
Prop, I hope you don't think those of us that made it up here are trying to "rub it in" in any way, but hope you enjoy the massage! LOL
Larry, I'll post my photos in their entirity on Flicker next week and post a link to them.
B Young

If you want to vent the engine the best position would be above the carbs and exhaust manifold. This way the air is better managed in and out, and heat is reduced to the float bowls as well. The rear facing ones on the Frog are cut down E Type, but even aluminium vents from your local K Mart would work just as well. But I think your overheating is more likely due to a combination of the ignition being over advanced, and the motor not being fully broken in.

F Pollock

Well its true I am truly bummed out not being there, the last 4 weeks where incrediable stressfull trying to get.all my ducks in order, so not making it has been a real punch in the gut.

But im feeling better .... I know what you guys are saying about the vents but im teying to balance out funtionality with good ethstics .. So not wanting to go overboard just enough to be funtional with out being over the top

Granted I wanted to do something like carl bentcliffs triangle, but I just never could devolp it to look good beyound a 5th grade art project....so im hoping one of the 2 designs will be both funtional and stylish...if not, well, there just fenders, its not like its a high performance engine

As to the oil cooler... Im not cutting any courners at this point, I figure if im goimg to do a oil cooler then im goimg all in and never have to deal with it agian, the good news is I can source the stainleess steel hose by the foot and AN10 fittiso ngs locally and assemble them myself, and there rated to 2000psi...more then enough

So hopefully this time next week il be driving trouble free


I hope you guys had a great time, and do have a safe drive back home.


Prop
Prop

Prop,
Forget using a rubbish stainless hose and go for a quality high pressure rubber hose.
2X the quality at a lower cost

Also when you put the fittings on the ends, they MUST be oriented correctly before you crimp them

Good Luck
Phil
Phil Burke

Prop, check the size of the fittings in the block, I think you'll find that they're no larger than 1/2" in diameter and that AN -8 line will be perfectly adequate, especially for a street engine at normal RPMs. No sense to buy larger than needed lines which are much harder to bend and form to the desired routes in the relatively tight confines of a Spridget engine bay.
Not every part that is used on a true race car is necessarly the best for your street car. Race cars live under more extreme conditions and at higher rpms than you're engine should ever see for more than a few seconds at a time.
We have guys here that just did 5 laps at speed on the Road America track (4 miles per lap) running 1/2" ID rubber oil lines to their coolers without any problems at all. When your car can do that then you might consider upgrading if you still think you need the -10 lines and braided stainless hoses and fittings.
B Young

Yeah... Those specs have changed in the last few hours, appeartly the AN 10 fittings are more of a specialty design, appeartly the more common fitting is an "BSD" in half inch whatever the heck that is,

But heres the scrotum skinner...you can only get a thermo stat as a push on for the rubber hoses. the stainless steel hoses wont work without special modification work...on top of that, the stainless steel is vary exact in length and fit, so no obstructions can be in the way...aka my custom made aluminume radiator...

Im not wild about using rubber as im changing out all the rubber hoses this winter for quick release racing areo fittings on stainless steel hoses....so rubber hoses will look like more of an after thought with the new stainless steel hoses...funtional yes but dog do do in apperance....hahaha
So like every thing midget, im sure this will be my next 3 month in depth adventure, trying to figure out how to make what ive invisioned into reality....least it will be a learning experance, but I was really hoping for a bolt on and go kind of mod hat required no elaberote thought...cause im pretty much burned out on this car, and looking forward to other intellectual projects exercises and persuits not related to the midget


Prop
Prop

This thread was discussed between 18/07/2011 and 22/07/2011

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