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MG Midget and Sprite General - Oui ou Non?
| Just out of interest, what's the view on the spridget bbs? :) Was the PM right to say, Non? Are we now doomed? |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Doomed either way Lawrence. Well, relatively. There is a world re-alignment going on. The UK, along with USA, Europe and other western democracies is / will be slipping down the economic pecking order over the coming years. We are likely to end up playing in the second division before long, with reduced standards of living to match, although not necessarily a lower quality of life. China will dominate along with other developing countries. Africa is gradually emerging from its medieval period (civil wars, dictatorships and tribal warfare in Africa over the last 50 years has been very similar to what was occurring in the UK in the 17 century) and will begin to take its turn. But there will be a lot of world and social unrest as the struggle for resources ratchets up with increasing numbers. Guy (Putting crystal ball back in its box) |
| Guy |
| yes no largely agree with Guy |
| David Smith |
| You little tinker...... I suppose it depends whether you are a reader of the Daily Mail or Telegraph or simply a thinking person. If you are a reader of the mail or telegraph you will be a euro sceptic (LOL) and would be very pleased with the PMs approach. However if you do not go in for news paper propagander and try to think for yourself you will obviously think how can 26 countries be wrong and one public schoolboy right? The idea of a united Europe is to have all industry on a level playing field, to do that tax rates and also benefits need to be the same and harmonised. (This is not rocket science) This should have occured before the euro was even thought about and not just now as a repair patch. However if anyone would like to compete with that euro economy then simply not playing by euro rules would give you an advantage (UNFAIRLY) However we have chosen that course and perhaps temporarily it will work until europe gets it act together and imposses sanctions on unfair competition! US! Of course that is only my opinion! |
| Bob Turbo Midget England |
| Were not doomed anyway but our actions in the next 15years will dictate the relationships with between the powers. China however is not the force to deal with as their 1 child policy will leave them with a big problem to deal with in 10 to 15 years. India is going to be one of the big players who need to be taken seriously. The only way we in the west can stay in the game is work together and form one front and work together. The ones who do not do this will sign for their own downfall. Knowledge, innovation, creativity and specialization are the key areas we need to put our mark on. |
| Onno K |
| We are now isolated. In the same way that the people on the lifeboat were isolated from the people on the Titanic! Not a comfortable place to be, but probably better than the alternative. |
| K Williams |
| It's a bit of a brave new world and I know that I don't have clue, furthermore I believe that in reality neither does anyone else. If in hidsight your were right 51% of the time, you were an expert. We'll see what happens. |
| Gary & Gaps |
| Don´t know about the Euro and the UK, my country is not a member of the EU. Should I say fortunately? I think Guy´s analysis of the general situation in the coming years is spot on. Including the comment that it will not necessarily mean a lower quality of life. World economy is cyclic. If I am correctly informed, China and India had about 40 % of the world production around 1820. Then it was Europe´s turn. The 1900s were the American century, that has now come to an end. So we are back to India and China. Africa is the new player here, it remains to be seen how that will work out. But it is important to remember that every person on this planet is entitled to a happy life, and that happiness is not directly related to economic growth. Tore |
| Tore |
| >>>>how can 26 countries be wrong and one public schoolboy right? Like 17 countries were right to form the Euro? Hahahaha, that's a good one, I bet the Greeks love it. Bob, you demean your own argument with personal comments, but that's the kind of rubbish we've come to expect. If I referred to "working class trash" you'd be up in arms, equality works both ways you know. Public school and expensive universities are also used by Labour leaders too. So put your class warfare prejudices back in their box if you wish to be taken seriously. Let's see...joining the EEC didn't pave the streets with gold. The Euro is falling apart. Hitting your thumb with a hammer hurts. Why do any of it again? Do the same thing, you get the same result. Saying "Non" is a new thing, let's look to new results. And where does everyone get this cr*p that countries trade with each other and we need to cosy up to them to trade with them? Countries don't trade, COMPANIES do. Let companies flourish and produce great, innovative products that people in other countries want to buy, then it won't matter what Stalinist bloc we're part of. BTW what exactly has Cameron said "no" to? "No we're not going to chuck money at un-reformed southern states"? "No we're not going to enter into fiscal union for a currency we don't have"? We might as well sign up for fiscal union with the dollar or the Chinese yen for all the relevance the Euro has to us! God I wish my delivery would arrive from DPD....I wouldn't be surfing with nothing better to do. Ah yes, something I have to thank the EU for, it's so easy to spend my money in Germany rather than the UK! So much for EU trade being to our benefit, I hardly source anything in GB any more, ****s up the Balance of Trade a treat :-) Hooray, DPD arrived, blood pressure can return to normal. Cheerio guys, I've had a bit of fun, see you at the next Public Rant! |
| Max max-at-midgetmax-dot-com |
| Max You hit the nail on the head. But not in the way you meant! The EU made it a lot easier to shop around within the EU. Even more so within the EURO region. You experiance it as a consumer and copanies experiance it just as well. Companies thrive on stable conditions and one economic system makes trading easier for them. Yes the big multinationals don't give a crap about euro dollar or yen and trade where ever they please. But below that is a big layer of the cake being occuppied by smaler companies trading "localy" Countries have to facilitate a stable climate first in their country then in their region then in the world. It is an illusion you can create a stable economic climate alone when all other countries have problems in your region. It is hard to create a stable economic climate in your region when other regions go bad. The solution now is not to isolate your country in hope your financial capitol will have a unique position and make money on that. The solution is to join forces and work with the contries you have the most connection with. |
| Onno K |
| Onno. Are you also suggesting that our PM should have said Yes, and that we should also join the Euro? |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Just an observation here from the weekend passed. We were in London for the weekend and were having a wander around the Museums. We walked past the Bundesbank which is currently undergoing a refurb and all of the contractors on the site notice board were (not surprisingly) German! Not normally one to vent my opinion on the general populus (sp?) of the BBS, I do find this is the bit that sticks in my throat with the EU, we're the ones who appear to follow all the silly little rules laid down by Brussels and use member countries contractors for work abroad but the boot never appears to be worn that way elsewhere. And as for regulation Cucumber sizes and straightness, I've never seen a straight one of the Continent ever!!!! One rule for us that we follow to the letter, and the rest of the EU do as they please anyhow. 'bout time we did our own thing for a change! rant over! A. |
| Andrew McGee |
| And somebody called me a spoon.. basically see what happens and cut your cloth to suite. There's only one set of people doing well out of this and that's the fund managers and investment bankers. Cynical as I am, these people do best in an unsettled market, so it's in their best interest to keep it so. Cameron is just appeasing the city. |
| P Ottewell |
| Always liked 'thinking globally, acting locally' where I can. Difficult in many ways when 'all' of our politicians get it wrong. Larry C. |
| Larry C '69 Midget |
| Lawrence Yes It would increase the number of stable countrys with butgetery discipline and therefore keep the euro more stable. I do think there have been some big mistakes made with the conception of the euro. The entry demands for countries have not always been checked as good as they should have been. The butgetery discipline rules in place have been ignored to often. The euro did not go far enough! One currency should mean complete financial openness between the countries and a shared policy in lending money. This does not mean france will decide how the germans will arrange their finances it means they both have to oblige to the same rules and can and will check each other |
| Onno K |
| If everyone abides by the same set of rules, where's the competition? It becomes a closed shop with no room for manoeuvre to respond to individual countries' assets, experience, strengths or weaknesses. |
| Guy |
| This does not mean france will decide how the germans will arrange their finances it means they both have to oblige to the same rules and can and will check each other You wish! Absolutely no chance of that happening! |
| Max max-at-midgetmax-dot-com |
| Max you suggest I defeat my own arguement when honestly you do the same. ""I bet the Greeks love it."" I guess you were trying to be synical with such a comment. However it is true they do love it!! Do you see them falling over themselves to get out? of course not because then they would know what economic problems really are. Imagine for one moment what the USA would be like if each state were a country with its own fiscal control and its own currency???? Well without going too far would the USA be a superpower? NON! Would they have landed on the moon? NON (even with German help!!) Would they have their present standard of living? NON In reality they would be a continent full of Mexicos!! LOL oh and this suggestion that some countries in Europe do not play by the rules (More fom the Mail I suspect) My son works for a successful English company making SS exhaust systems for commercial vehicles. They have a major contract in Spain fitting catalytic converters to spanish buses (yes the Spanish take emmissions seriously) and guess what labour they are using to fit them ? British!! Seems on that basis we are the same as the Germans. It always seems strange to me that here we have a number of business people who do not like the EU yet this week on TV analysis the only people in favour of Cameron were Bankers and all the business managers were disgusted by our position and thought we were on a downward spiral. Banks put us in this mess and now they are preventing us moving on. Yes I know the financial institutions do make foreign exchange but goodness me we sometimes pay heavily for it! Max I believe Cameron did go to public school are you saying he didn't? if I had been talking about another politicion then had they also been to PS I would have said exactly the same! I am sure some of the other 26 heads of state also had a private education? who knows it still does not change the maths! 26 to 1 !!!! |
| Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo |
| By the way I loved the analogy by K Williams about the Titanic. Whilst I disagree with that view it was a superb comparison! |
| Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo |
| Finally should this bloke be leading our country?? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16149742 I am begining to think so. Anyway Lawrence you little tinker why don't you go the whole hog and start a thread about religion? Maybe you could ask How old is the Earth? Or perhaps why did the ark not save any dinosaurs? Now that ought to create aggro!! |
| Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo |
| The debate about the age of the earth is a rational and scientific one. The debate about the EEA and the EU, is not at all scientific. It's largely, it seems to me, about national identities and pyschologies, added to very mathematical, but not at all scientific theories of money, and how it works. If tobacco were discovered today, with all that is known now, it would never get a licence (in most countries). If the Euro did not exist, but todays understanding of how the different eu countries would behave in trying to share it, did exist, the Euro would never be proposed. It seems to me, that whilst the oiginal ideas of why the common market were forged were sound, the evolution of it, and the practical application of that evolution, prove that it simply doesn't work, unless you forge political and monetary union. Do the indivual countries of the EU, REALLY want to become ONE country? I don't think so. I don't know if PM was right or not. I do think we are NOT doomed. I don't think anybody can predict what will happen next with any great certainty. There is too much posturing going on from every direction. It's all a great game. As ever it was. |
| Lawrence Slater |
| ""the Euro would never be proposed."" Maybe in your world, but it would still have been suggested as it is a necessarty to have a combined Europe to reap all the benefits of that union. However what should have happened with hindsight as described by a couple of posters here and also the 26 heads of government in the EU is that tax rates and benefits should have been harmonised and government debt levels needed to be kept in control. I would prefer to be European rather than British as would people in the United States. They would prefer to be US citizens rather than Texans or indeed Mainians? Actually I think they would admit to being both. Also you might want to ask them would they prefer to be independent? I would be very surprise if they did. All we need to do in Europe is overcome these nationalistic attitudes and realise strength in unity and our childrens futures will be so much better. I wonder what the Yankees and Confederates were saying during their civil war? |
| Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo |
| I can not in anyway see how this is reversable...it will just get worse as time goes Between corruption, political bribry, and loyalty to party over the nation... We are just doomed If we cant find ground of common intrest....its over I really think the beging of the end is when isreal bombs iran... That will force the usa military in and gas rockets to $10 to $15.00 a gallon....then the political parties take each other on for points while we all suffer I really think the sooner the usa turns over control of the world currency to china the better One thing id love to see is the dollar backed by the value of oil instead of a gov. promis or gold coinage |
| Pro P |
| Prop, just for your info we're paying around $8 for a US gallon at the moment in the UK |
| Nigel Atkins |
| United States of Europe.... Not sure that will ever play out in all honesty. The USofA has been formed over the last couple of hundred years and has had that long to come to terms with the combined states being "ruled" by one Statesman (in simplistic terms). Surely the only way for that to work for Europe would be the acceptance of one "Statesperson" and one Parliament without to myriad of minor states all vying for their own agendas. Maybe in 200 plus years it will all be fine in that respect. However, what is the thing with Texas and it's reputation of being "The Lone Star State", isn't there rumblings that they want to leave the Union? Just an observation! |
| Andrew McGee |
| This was a simple question about the PM saying NON, not about israel bombing Iran, or if the USA would be Mexico if the USA did not exist. There's no comparison between the USA and a potential USE.(united states of europe). The USA came about because a whole lot of settlers, wanted to escape the constant wars, religious oppression, and poverty in central Europe, and because European countries saw great wealth potential in the "new world", without having to invade some other country to get it. These european countries were of course wrong on two counts. They had to fight the existing inhabitants, who were eventually displaced, and also eachother, just as they always had in European wars. Because the British contingent of that settlement process, was the most successful at colonising, the Brits ruled the roost, -- kind of, for a while. When our very own king george tried to insist they all remain loyal to the Crown, the majority rebelled and said, stuff that, we prefer independance. They won, and the USA was formed. It is COMPLETELY different, to attempting to create a single European country, or USofE, out of a myriad of countries, that have histories going back a couple of thousand years, and hence deeply ingrained cultural differences, that they for the most part, wish to retain. Rob. ""the Euro would never be proposed."" Maybe in your world," I don't know what you mean in my world. But in my world, Jaques Delore, said a few days ago that the Euro was misconceived, and that essentially it was always doomed to end up in the current poor state, because the issue of the differences between the variuos econonomies and cultures of the member contries, was fudged. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8932647/Euro-doomed-from-start-says-Jacques-Delors.html "I would prefer to be European rather than British" AND "All we need to do in Europe is overcome these nationalistic attitudes" Well Rob, you might well be happy to drop your national identity. Most people are not. Gold is not silver, an italian not a spaniard, or a german a frenchman. They never will be. All the ideologising of how wonderful the world would be if we simply stopped arguing and started sharing everything, will never overcome personal preference. You might as well suggest we all become communist. In theory communism is fantastic. To each according to his needs. The trouble is, some of us want more. It's human nature, and it's also human nature that some are harder workers and some lazy. So to bind all together in single country called Europe is never going to work. It's already failing. We are Great Britain. The United Kingdom. Except we aren't at all. Wales is pretty much devolved, and Scotalnd want the same thing. Ireland isn't united, and probably will never be. Some hope that you can get 27 or 35 or more countries, all to pledge themselves to one government. Never happen in my view, and if it is forced, it will fall apart with a generation. Better to go back to the original idea. A Common market without trade barriers and woith seperate currencies, however inefficient that might be, rather than the chaos that the EEA and the Euro is today. IMO.:) |
| Lawrence Slater |
| This is what happens, when you say NON to the EU machine, and perhaps why it was RIGHT, to say NON! "European officials and leaders today lashed out at the Prime Minister,-- and calling for Britain's £2.7 billion rebate to be cut in punishment. --- " "French MEP Joseph Daul, who chairs the parliament's centre-Right European People's Party group, said "selfish" Britain should be stripped of its rebate. "The British cheque is now up for question. Tax monies should be spent on someone else rather than compensating selfish nationalism," he said. Asked by a British MEP if he was threatening the UK, Mr Daul replied: "There will be no tanks, no Kalashnikovs before Christmas. But I did indeed says that if UK solidarity, as it seems, has been abandoned towards the other 26, I can't see why the other 26 should make an extra gesture towards the British. Now the gauntlet is thrown down. Politics has always been a great spectator sport. LOL |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Pleasantly surprised that in all of Lawrence's discussion threads Godwin's Law does not appear to apply to this Spridget BBS at least... :) |
| James Bilsland |
| LOL. Lawrence Europe can be exactly like the USA!! the USA is a prestine example of what can be achieved by a number of small insignificant states working together in harmony for the benefit of all. A fine example I might add of peoples of all races, Germans, English, Irish, Scots, Spanish, Latins, eastern european etc. etc. (extremely similar to Europe in fact!!) It is a mystery (well not really it is obvious to any thinking person) why anti europeans always ignore this fundemental fact! As Jacques RIGHTLY points out the euro in its present state was illconceived, there has to be full fiscal union (As demonstrated by the US model) for it to work correctly and is why they had a meeting the other day! Finally there are more MEPs in the european parliament than "Joseph Daul" however it suits some newspapers to focus in on singular instances (I wonder why?) I should have stated IYO and just for the record you can not speak for everyone as nor can I. All you can say is that you do not want to be thought of as European where as I can only say I would like to be. It is quite strange how some/ most Americans are proud of their ancestry! and why not but do they enjoy being Americans? "by golly they do!!" |
| Bob Turbo Midget England |
| Good one James! RAOFLMAO. Having had a bit of a laugh yesterday, I suppose some constructive comment won't hurt! United States of Europe. Actually it could be a good idea but not now, not with this bunch of politicos and unelected self-servers in charge. So what have we learned about Europe from the deaths of so many pixels in this thread? Onno: "Come on in, the water's lovely" Bob: "Wow, yes, it sounds great" Me (and I suspect many others): "Nah, I don't like swimming, but would you like to buy my hi-Q cozzies? And what about selling me your goggles?" At the moment I suspect Bob is in the minority. If you think you are in the majority bob, then you need to campaign for a referendum - the last one was for membership of a European Economic community, the Common Market, which is working rather well. It was not for a united, federal Europe. As soon as there is a "Yes" vote, then someone has a mandate to link us ever more closely. Until then, it's Bob-et-al vs UKIP vs me-and-fellow-traders. No-one has a mandate to do what they think is best, and until they have that mandate their/your view is no more valid than my view. I don't think we're doomed. There'll be a lot of sabre-rattling, silly comments like we've heard from Daul, then it'll all go quiet. The Euro's got to go, it's dragging down Germany. Multi-currencies are the only sensible way forward until there's a single Euro state with single government. All these silly sticking plasters will keep falling off over a period of time until someone grasps the nettle. |
| Max max-at-midgetmax-dot-com |
| As usual I tend to think that Max talks sense. The key issue is that until there is a clear mandate spoken by the nation we have to accept what transpires with the route taken so far. I just wish the powers that be would have the decency to offer the Referendum in the first instance so they can actually do what the inhabitants and citizens of this country actually want them to do instead of second guessing our wishes and then being accused of favouring some other third party. Why are they afraid of that Referendum in any case? And James, to those of us who are a bit thick, what is Godwins Law in the first instance (and more to the point have I fallen foul of it?) :-) A |
| Andrew McGee |
| Andrew Google is your friend :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law Cut and paste due to the underscore J |
| James Bilsland |
| Godwins law say that any lengthy discussion eventually includes mention of facists, I believe. Why James, should any thread I instigate, invoke facists? Do you consider me one? There won't be a referendum, because currently the vote would go against membership of the EU. It might also trigger already existing sentiment in the rest of the EU. Only history can decide (if given the chance)if it would be a good idea to leave the EU. Nobody knows, and people are as afraid of the unknowable future, as they are afraid of the frequently misunderstood past. |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Ah I see... On another Forum I frequent that normally takes the form of "it's all Thatchers fault!" Not that I am saying it is or it isn't you understand! :-) |
| Andrew McGee |
| Rob, I'm not anti European, why would I be? |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Lawrence, You have indeed confirmed Godwin's Law. The point of his law is that the topic of the internet discussion is totally irrelevant. Eventually, he claims, if the topic continues long enough someone will bring fascism into the discussion in some form or other. Of course one could concoct any such similar law as he puts no time limit on it at all so it cannot be disproved. Bit like not finding Higg's bosun doesn't prove it doesn't exist. |
| Guy |
| Are Guy now your talking The Higgs Boson Now is CERN, I am just guessing by the way,(naturally I know the answer LOL) a fantastic european colaboration, a bit like Airbus to name just a couple! LOL And talking of guessing Lawrence It was a guess on my part but the JC thread gave you away!! ROFLMAO As an aside a few years ago I would have suggested a referendum would have taken us out of the EC. However this last few days have convinced me that the majority of MPs want us in, as does British business, with this power base it seems to be possible to convince jonny public that membership would be a positive thing maybe? I think the best chance will be to let Nige Farage talk the British public into staying in!!!. Great British name that isn't it? bit like Smith. LOL |
| Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo |
| Perhaps I'm showing my age here, but before the EU became a reality Britain was a member of EFTA (European Free Trade Association)in which we were trading with a number of European countries on a level playing field. The thing which rankles with me is the fact that when we had a referendum in the early seventies to decide whether or not we join a "Common Market" as it was called at the time, most people, including myself thought that it could only be a good thing. It was not sold to us as a European Union, which it has morphed into over the years. In that sense I consider the public was betrayed (or mis-sold in insurance parlance) It was certainly a misrepresentation of the way things would end up. Successive governments have promised us a referendum on membership, which never happens, but it is only through a referendum that matter can be decided. If the majority says 'no' then get out, if 'yes' then so be it. It is the people's choice not the politicians, many of whom have a vested interest. How many politicians have lost their seat in parliament only to get a cushy post in Brussels. You've done it again Lawrence. Oh, and President DeGaule got it right when he said 'Non' Dave |
| D MATTHEWS |
| On the news just now, even that bastion of the Tory Press, the BBC, could not gloss over the fact that many states are feeling disquiet over the terms of the Treaty. That it does not address the problem. So was Dave right? If you forget the politics and look at the economics then maybe he was, in the eyes of other states. Unfortunately, all that comes across is the toadying up to his cronies in the city. For someone in PR, he's CR@p at spin. BTW Bob, CERN is a brilliant example of collaboration. But that doesn't mean we have to be European. Andrew and I were both involved in helping Pieter Bakker with FISC, that doesn't mean we want to be Dutch any more than Pieter wants to be English. Concorde, Airbus, CERN, they've all been achieved without political and fiscal union. Why change a successful formula? |
| Max max-at-midgetmax-dot-com |
| Oooo you touched on something there Max dear friend. If we come out of Europe, then maybe we wouldn't be allowed to race at Spa or the Ring or anywhere else we've been lucky enough to race at with our National A "Euro" marked Race Licences. On that basis I say Yes to staying in Europe.... fickle aren't I!!!!! :-) |
| Andrew McGee |
| Rob, The Higgs bosun, and Cern is a bad example for you to use. :) CERN, "Conseil Européen pour la Recherche Nucléaire", is a European collaboration to research subatomic behaviour and generally find out if god really exists. :) Cern, operates the LHC (large hadron collider), which is in Geneva, SWITZERLAND. Switzerland, is indeed in Europe. But it is NOT in the EU, or the Euro. They (the swiss), are not one of the 27, or the 17. Switzerland is in the EFTA (European Free Trade Association), previously mentioned. A Swiss referendum held on 6 December 1992 rejected EEA membership. So it is the perfect example of what can be achieved by cooperation, without the kind of union that creates a super European state. I think I'd rather be Swiss, than European, especially as it's one of my favourite places to ski.:) (Mind you there's nowt wrong with the french, austrian, or italian bits either). Rob, what does the JC thread give away about me, I'm completely lost on that? And how's this for an assination on poor old cleggy? http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/matthew-norman/matthew-norman-clegg-is-helping-his-enemies-to-annihilate-his-own-party-6276504.html |
| Lawrence Slater |
| For Heaven's (note respectful caps) sake Lawrence, don't mention the war! |
| Roger T |
| What war Roger?. Careful, you might fall fowl of Godwins law. lol |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Lawrence Free trade agreements are fine of that there is no doubt however: Big business day in and day out want only one thing, a level playing field. That includes exchange rates, if they fluctuate then trade can not blossom as it should. Stability is the name of the game and that is not me deciding that that is the CBI! I work for TATA steel we compete on the world market against the likes of China and India etc. Our employees enjoy health benefits (via the NHS), good wages etc, but also we try to protect our environment and also we try and ensure through risk assessment and health and safety that ALL our employees go home to their loved ones every evening! I am sure you think as I do that that is a good outlook for any organisation. However do Chinese steelworkers enjoy the same benefits? If they do/did then competition would be fair and the company with the best product or most efficient operation would come out on top. The truth unfortunately is a different matter. The Chinese beat us because they do not give their employees quality healthcare, they do not pay them a good wage, they do not care about the environment and health and safety is? well you can decide. What do you think should be done to address these concerns? I think Rog was suggesting you go for a full house by mentioning the war. :) he noted your comment about religion no doubt! Unknown to you perhaps is that the MAJORITY of people believe God to exist and the world to be only 7000 years old. Now based upon a referendum God and the age of the earth being 7000 years would win!! As you will see referendums are the way forward and a good way of finding the truth (he says with tongue firmly in cheek) |
| Bob Turbo Midget England |
| This ought to help.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10 it'll all make sense after you've watched this (tic!) :-) |
| Andrew McGee |
| So if I've got this right Rob, creating a European super state, will force the Chinese to repsect human rights, and end poverty in the world. Oh well if you put it like that then I'm in. lol. I also seem to recall the NHS was a British invention, not a European one. As for religion. It wasn't me who raised that. You did, with mention of the age of the earth and Noah. I agree, the fact that a majority believe in god doesn't make it true. I personally believe there is a chocolate teapot orbiting the sun. :). Clearly a referendum held on the subject of membership of the EU or EuroZone, wouldn't be couched in such simplistic and irrelevant terms, and in any event believe in god or otherwise, does not disqualify people from wishing to chose their political future. Are you seriously suggesting (of course you're not), that because a majority of people in the world believe in god, that referenda are a waste of time? Now you're getting desperate. LOL. Andrew, I agree. I said as much earlier, we have enough trouble keeping the Kingdom United, without creating a super eu state. lol. |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Seems Dave wasn't alone with his doubts after all then. "The Financial Times reports that Hungary, which wavered last week before joining the 26, is unhappy about corporation tax levels being set by Brussels, while Sweden has misgivings about the financial transactions tax. Then there is the possibility that such transference of powers from national governments to central control could trigger a referendum in Ireland" http://uk.news.yahoo.com/euro-other-countries-may-pact-doubts-144707544.html Whoops, pass the veto Dave, someone else wants it. lol. |
| Lawrence Slater |
| A referendum in Ireland is nothing of importance. The EU just reruns it until they get the result they need. Which is exactly why the USE may be a good thing, but not now, not with this lot. Too many vested interests. I loved Sarkozy running round France yesterday saying what a blinder he played, French banking shares drop. Hahahaha |
| Max max-at-midgetmax-dot-com |
| Having watched the YouTube link, it's quite clear there's only one thing to do to restore order: BRING BACK THE EMPIRE! |
| Max max-at-midgetmax-dot-com |
| ""So if I've got this right Rob, creating a European super state, will force the Chinese to repsect human rights, and end poverty in the world. Oh well if you put it like that then I'm in. lol"" Not my words I think you will find, I asked you the question of how to deal with that situation? you did not answer? :) |
| Bob Turbo Midget England |
| FOMHLMAO(AIH) Max - why not go the whole hog and have Queen Victoria as monarch, and Maggie as PM! |
| rachmacb |
| The trouble with referenda is that they are always far too simplistic, dumbed down to a LCD of options. And whatever the choices they never have a box for "None of the above" which is what would get most votes. Should we join - oui ou non - well that depends on the small print and dozens of associated variables. If there were a national referendum I would be seriously concerned about the influence of the media on the outcome. I can imagine the future of Europe being morphed into a simplistic vote for or against straight bananas! |
| Guy |
| Curvy Banana's for me then! Simples! |
| Andrew McGee |
| Yeah but no but, I think the EU changed their stance on curvy bananas and cucumbers. So now curvy is in again, and so is straight. :) Rob, as for China and it's low pay agenda and general unfairness to it's workers, lack of care for the environment etc, -- if I knew the answer to that one, I'd be a nobel prize winner. lol. But I don't think voting for an EU superstate headed by a President Merkozy, is the answer either, and nor was Dave voting Oui, rather than Non. So as I don't know how to make the Chinese be good chaps and play capitalism fairly (a contradiction in terms), why don't you explain how it should be done? Or let me guess. Integrate all the countries of the european continental land mass into one country. Eventually, include Russia and China. Then when cooking nicely, gradually expand until Africa and India are part of the group, and finally Asia Pacific and the USA. Bingo! World government. No more competition, unfair or otherwise, no more want or war. Eutopia at last, here on earth. Peace and love. Speaking of bringing back the Empire. Which one? Did you ever read Asimov? Foundation anyone? |
| Lawrence Slater |
| <<I think the EU changed their stance on curvy bananas and cucumbers>> Wouldn't stop certain parts of our free press making it the central issue. Who would want facts to get in the way of a good headline? |
| Guy |
| That's true Guy. But you have to be fair, headlines sell copy. A press baron has gotta make a living, and keep us all entertained. lol. |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Yes I think I have read most of Asimov's books and find his work to be my favourite reading. (shhh especially Guide to the Bible!!) LOL No again these were your ideas and words and certainly not mine. You do have some strange ideas mate and I admire your thinking outside the box but your proposals are sheer fantasy! Interestingly however is your notion that under a single government competition stops!!! how do you work that out? There are plenty of national businesses in Britain that whilst all ruled by our government compete with each other daily and at the highest level. Once you remove competition the whole improvement thing collapses (I thought you would know that?) (read Darwin origin of the species) as was demonstrated by the Soviet Bloc! By the way I am playing with you. LOL Do you think competition should be at the expense of human suffering, welfare or do you think competiton should reward initiative and invention? Simple question I think. :) |
| Bob Turbo Midget England |
| "but your proposals are sheer fantasy!" Heh heh, of course they are, just like a fully integrated Europe is a fantasy. lol. And me too Rob.:) "Do you think competition should be at the expense of human suffering, welfare or do you think competiton should reward ? Simple question I think. :)" Well Rob, now you mention it, and Darwin, yes I'm willing to admit that competition is at the expense of those who lose, and indeed suffer. Why pretend otherwise? Should it reward initiative and invention? It’s not that is should, it’s that it often does. He who dares wins so to speak. There are no free lunches, and there shouldn’t be either, unless you are in charge and can dictate the rules of course. :) We, just like just about every species we know of, compete to survive (maybe not lemmings lol ), and we above all other animals are the most ruthless at putting ourselves first. Individuals excepted of course. (Although I would argue there is no such thing as a selfless act). Now some of course think this totally unacceptable, and some believe it is not how it is meant to be. (Creation). We as a “higher species” blessed with a conscience should strive to end inequality and suffering etc, and share the world. That would be fine, if everybody thought the same way. But it’s clearly evident from current events, and from recorded history, that everybody doesn’t think that way. How much are, you personally, willing to give up to end world poverty inequality and suffering? My honest answer? Not a lot. You can't eliminate inequality without eliminating competition. To compete is either to win, lose or draw. Very few, if any, compete to either lose or draw. Hence there will always be losers as long as you advocate competition, and you do Rob. :) So now the decision has to be made, about how successful you allow people, or countries to be, when they compete and win. Should the winners as soon as they do well -- above a certain level--, automatically be deprived of a large chunk of their success, just to support the losers? That to me, undermines competition, and encourages those who can't be bothered to simply await a handout. Of course some start with a disadvantage, such as those born into a region where there are few if any natural resources, or, those who are for various reasons, simply not as good as others at competing. So how much should the advantaged winners, give to the disadvantaged losers? Suggest a percentage? But anyway, what has any of this got to do with PM Dave, getting a rousing great cheer in front of the 1922 committee for swinging the Non, at the EU machine? :) |
| Lawrence Slater |
| >>>>>Speaking of bringing back the Empire. Which one? Klingon. (that's interesting, iPad can't spell lots of English words but it know Klingon! That's true integration for you) |
| Max max-at-midgetmax-dot-com |
| Lawrence, You touch on an interesting concept about competing to win, or draw or loose. If you compete with the objective of losing, do you win? |
| Guy |
| "If you compete with the objective of losing, do you win?" Deeper and deeper Guy. :) I would say the answer is yes. Whenever you compete, it is with an objective in mind. If you attain that objective, be it win lose or draw, you win. :) |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Just to digress from this high-flying discussion for a moment- What does membership of the EU cost us bearing in mind it is an extra tier of government. The fourth tier in fact. At the bottom is the Parish Council costing a few quid a year to put up footpath signs and maintain half a dozen street lights. Next is the District Council with council tax requiring about £ 1,400 a year. After that comes National government costing God knows what, and increasing. And then the European Union costing between 40 to 50 million pounds DAILY. Would't it be better to run it all from the Church Hall? Dave |
| D MATTHEWS |
| Wish mine was 1400 quid a year Dave. Try almost 1800 quid pa, for a not so grand 3 bed semi.:) location location location? Anyway running it all from a church hall, might be closer than expected, as the EU begins to unravel. "Poles marched under banners that read: “We want sovereignty, not the euro.” They were protesting against the Brussels deal that could see EU countries, including those outside the eurozone, face penalties for breaking tough centralised spending laws. Britain used its veto in Brussels, sparking an intense backlash. Ireland (Xetra: A0Q8L3 - news) and Sweden are also nervous about the fiscal pact, but Germany and France still expect the other 26 members, minus the UK, to approve it." http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/debt-crisis-brussels-accord-verge-223114532.html;_ylt=AkrlAM4WfEcBmHLNI2xkcxTSr7FG;_ylu=X3oDMTNyNTF0N21nBG1pdANGUCBUb3AgU3RvcnkgTGVmdARwa2cDZmRkOWYwYTQtYzQxZC0zOWIzLWIwYTQtM2ZmYWI4MGM2YTNjBHBvcwMxBHNlYwN0b3Bfc3RvcnkEdmVyA2VjMTJmMzgwLTI3YmUtMTFlMS1iZmZkLWVlYjM5YTBjMDM4ZA--;_ylg=X3oDMTFvZzY4MG5jBGludGwDZ2IEbGFuZwNlbi1nYgRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25zBHRlc3QD;_ylv=3 It's going to be a brave new world. LOL. |
| Lawrence Slater |
| A voice of sanity! Alas we tried that, with wealthy amateurs in government just like a glorified Vicar of Dibley. Then the Bobs of this world put their heads above the parapet and demanded working class representation, we had paid politicos, then wham, bang, we've got expense account, David Cmeron, Ed Millipede and Ed Balls. oiks all of them, no matter where they went to school. I think we'd be better off if we did away with the House of Commons, and relied on Lords who don't need to earn a living, in government because they want to genuinely do good rather than enhance their status. Someone the Germans will respect, the French will hate even more and the Yanks will pour money to visit. I think the EU would be more effective if it were known as Greater Britain, we'll give the Governor of Australia more powers and re-impose martial law on the Indan sub-continent. As the beneficial occupying power we will ensure fair distribution of food and fuel according to need, and very soon the African nations will WANT to become part of the new British Beneficence to ensure good food and freedom from poverty and corruption. Nothing like a good old fashioned British Food Board to get things sorted out. From there, the world! Now, here did I put my white cat? Hope he didn't stray into the indoor piranha pool. Hmm, perhaps he's in the laser room, or playing with the launch controls of my volcano rocket. Nurse! The screens! |
| Max max-at-midgetmax-dot-com |
| Sounds like a Plan Max. Can a certain Dr strangelove join in if he promises to behave? But Actually I favour your earler suggestion. A Klingon EU empire. jIH neH HoS. Which roughly translated is. I want power. jIH muS Euros. Which is I hate Euros. Hegh Daq Hoch eurocrats. Which is death to all eurocrats. And if you think this is all crap, you won't be able to encourage your bowls to expel it, with the humble prune anymore . EU experts say it is not a laxative. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/telegraph-view/8956917/Irregular-movement.html nuq [a] [lot] vo' excreta : wot a lot of sh@#@#! lol. |
| Lawrence Slater |
| jIH Sop prunes. I eat prunes. :) |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Now Lawrence, Time to get back in your box. |
| Guy |
| Chris Evans tried it yesterday - he ate a prune every 15 minutes live on air. Kept him going all day! So there we have it, a genuine FREE test giving what actually happens where hours of expensive scientific research could only postulate wrongly. A metaphor for the EU - works fine in theory, but all falls apart in practice. Makes me laugh...there's the great and good of the EU signing something they haven't even read, sold to them by a couple of snake oil salesmen, and then criticising Cameroon for being prudent. |
| Max max-at-midgetmax-dot-com |
| I think they've read it now max. The EU countries are revolting en-masse. Oskar Lafontaine, a leader of Germany's Linke (Left) party, said the euro was hurtling towards destruction on current policies. He accused Merkel and Sarkozy of driving Greece into a downward spiral and now trying to inflict the same "demented" policies on the whole of Europe. Dave's veto, sounds more and more like a right move to me. |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Well, I will add my french point of view. Sure Mr Sarkozy ActionMan will not make me very popular on the tread, but... ... I was in China on July, 1 € = 10 RMB. Last week, when I was in Shanghai, 1€ = 8.25 RMB. Euro is decreasing? NO, because Euro is better and better against USD. The fact is China is becomming the N°1 of the World. USA is loosing the leadership, and every countries with US model will suffer more than USA. I mean UK. Greece has an enormous problem, but this is not the euro problem. Without Euro zone, Greece should have to deflate their money and will not be abble to hire money to pay the energy, to pay the people... Euro will help Greeks to continue to work and create value. In Bengladesh, we know as they have not enought money and production of textile is increasing, we know that factories will not have enought electricity for 2012. So what we buy from them will not be produce, they will not be paid and they will not produce enought value for the country. Greece is not bengladesh: not yet... But if Euro zone is not strong, Greece will be as Bengladesh. If Euro zone is not strong enought, USA will failed and before USA: UK. The only thing I am sure, is EEC is the best thing arrived to the European continent. Sure it is not perfect, and perfection is only for angels at paradise. Perfection is not for the world. UK can be eurosceptic, it is a choice, but in this case UK have to go out EEC and work alone. Not sure the Financial City will aggree with this. Just the point of view of a french guy who travel around for business. laurent |
| ld derancourt |
| Exactamente Laurent! |
| Matt1275Bucks |
| Excellent Laurent The problem with the British is that we tend to be very selective about what we see and hear. I love to mix with Europeans and want to be part of it thank you very much. Please tell your friends that our prime minister only speaks for the people on the right in the UK, and had it not been for the Liberal MPs supporting him he would not even be representing them! They have a lot to answer for I think. Lawrence by the way I totally disagree with you about competition. Competition should be allowed to drive us all forward by making business more efficient. This should not be at the expense of personal benefits or wages. These should be protected on a level playing field otherwise governments such as Camerons will try to compete with others by finding those who will work simply to put food in their families mouths. We were supposed to have moved away from that during the edwardian period! If a common market and currency ensured that we could make sure those countries that traded within that organisation respected wages and benefits. Thanks for your valued contribution Laurent. |
| Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo |
| I love your comments Bob. Everyone who agrees with you has a "valued comment." everyone who disagrees with you is derided as a Telegraph or Mail reader as if that were something bad. That's why these threads are so much fun!!! Keep it up mate, you've helped develop Brand Max. Merry Christmas one and all, whether you think "oui" or "non". There's no doubt the argument will rage on and I expect the truth is as ever somewhere in between. |
| Max max-at-midgetmax-dot-com |
| Hah hah. Bienvenue Laurent,- from one Laurent to another. :). The old doomsday scenario chestnut. I love that. If the Euro tanks, we'll all be like Bangladesh. lol. "UK can be eurosceptic, it is a choice, but in this case UK have to go out EEC and work alone." No, sorry, we don't have to. We can choose to stay in the common market, and argue for the view as we see it. There are no ten commandments in the EU. Nothing carved in stone, that cannot be changed. And there are a myriad of reasons why we are not in as weak a position as Greece, and certainly not like Bangladesh. Even the Greeks are nowhere near likely to end up like Bangladesh. But I love a good scare story before bedtime, it helps me sleep without nightmares. :). Rob, you really are an old class warrior aren't you. :) Left and right, the toffs and the workers, and all that Jazz. Reminds me of me, when I was a leftie, far more radical than you sound. lol. You talk of "people on the right", as if they are some kind of disease, parasites leaching on the honest left leaning workers who were robbed of their democratic victory, by the unholy alliance with dodgy and self interested Liberals. lol. "If a common market and currency ensured that we could make sure those countries that traded within that organisation respected wages and benefits." Yes, "IF". But it doesn't work does it! The evidence mounts daily, and nobody knows how to fix it. There is no agreement on the solution, because there is no solution that everybody finds acceptable. The Euro can't be kept in it's present form. Maybe it will be patched up, and hobble along for another few months or years. Then what? The next crisis, that's what. Well, I hope Dave, or some other loony right wing toff is still at the helm of the HMS GB, to stear us clear of the rocks. ha hah. Anyone for Boris? Doesn't he read the Times and the Telegraph? Even writes for them? Here you go Rob, the gospel according to Boris. http://www.boris-johnson.com/ |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Do you never listen LAWRENCE??? We ALL KNOW the Euro in its present state does not work, god almighty even the original designers of the system admit that. For it to work all countries involved must have the same tax rules and benfits as in THE BLOOMING USA For goodness sake Lawrence can we not have to keep going over and over old ground. strangely enough you sound just like me when I was a right wing mislead youth. Thankfully I grew out of it!! LOL |
| Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo |
| LOLOLOL! Sorry to annoy you ROB, but the same old ground is still here, it's not like it's gone anywhere now is it? LOL! :) The train is still wrecked/wrecking, in the station, so it's still worth discussing it. But it seems that only you have the right to mention the "single currency" now then? :) Ans PLEASE stop bringing the USA into this, how many times must you mention the USA? "can we not have to keep going over and over old ground" LOL! And here's a funny thing, Sarkozy is on the right too, and it's the lefties in France, that don't seem to the like the deal, that was almost agreed last week. Admittedly I know little of French politics, so that may not be true. After all I did read it in the Daily Telegraph, or was it the Daily Mail or the FT or some other right wing Rag. Maybe I read it in the mirror? So how come you were once on the right, and then saw the light Rob? :). |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Lawrence for the love of formatting :( please think tinyurl when posting links please mate That link you posted had 410 characters and has made this thread bloody horrible, notwithstanding the content, it has murdered my screen Use tinyurl and we get http://tinyurl.com/btaa5at for the same tale :) anyway have fun with this. . . |
| Bill1 |
| Hi Bill, I have no idea why my posts, and others are spreading all over the screen. I just type, and the screen editor is supposed to sort out the line length, -- I thought. I try seperating the lines but it still happens. I'd be grateful if you can tell me how to fix it.:) What's tunyUrl? And for those thinking China is going to rule the world, and rescue the crippled Euro? Well some bad news, their own economy is in troube, due to too loose credit. Some economists are even predicting a western style crash. Maybe, maybe not, but nothings certain. Nevr mind, soon be christmas. :) |
| Lawrence Slater |
| I refuse to do circular pillockickal arguments in here it aint worth the brainstrain When you link on an URL in the BBS it is not ever stripped down so that long strings are formatted, so we can all end up with cinemascope screens tinyurl is a free program that will simply take your link url and reduce it to a screen manageable size, as in the tinyurled one I obtained for you google and bookmark it, I have. Also be very careful linking to any site from in here as these links are often used by spambots to attack the site using your identity which is in your header (a series of numbers up there^^^) A lesson I have needed to heed a couple of times, this may be why Mike makes us lose our adopted screen names at times and give us our plain unasdorned registration names from time to time |
| Bill1 |
| this is a good time to remind myself that the only difference between Bob and me is that Bob thinks he's right, I *know* I'm right. |
| David Smith |
| I'm glad you mentioned that Bill. I thought my computer had gone Apes**t. I was thinking there isn't a monitor wide enough for this. Bernie. |
| b higginson |
| Hi Bill, Er -- thanks? You obviously understand screen formatting. 'Fraid I don't really. You didn't post a web link in your last post, and yet your comment is also off the screen. Why is that? |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Lawrence. the screen is now wide for all of us because the URL link that you posted has reset the thread's column width so that anyone else posting a very long sentence means that it will carry on in one single line until the return key is pressed and then that starts another line. HTH :-) |
| Andrew McGee |
| Ah, thanks Andrew. I Wish the editor remained active, I could back in and delete the link. Sorry people. :( |
| Lawrence Slater |
| David at last we can agree I can live with that assessment. :) |
| Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo |
| Lawrence fear not mate there will be countless opportunities in future :( with any luck it will soon be time for one of them to take precedence :) happy Christmas everyone as a friend put it eloquently in an email this arternoon "Other festivals are available" please use whichever you like to accept good wishes from me and mine... I'm adrift again... |
| Bill1 |
| My original question was.--- "Was the PM right to say, Non? Are we now doomed? Here is the answer from Germany. Dave was right, nd we are not isolated. "Guido Westerwelle, the German foreign minister, used a visit to London to extend an olive branch, lavishing praise on the UK as an ‘indispensable partner’ and promising a ‘hands-off’ approach to our financial services industry. There are increasing signs Germany is prepared to go behind France’s back and contemplate giving David Cameron the special protections for the City of London that were refused at a crunch summit this month, prompting the Prime Minister to veto an EU-wide power-sharing treaty." Funny old world, isn't it? |
| Lawrence Slater |
| having worked for German companies for almost 25 years, they aren't a bad bunch y'know. I take the view that we've had a couple of falling-outs over the years but like best mates we can put that behind us and the friendship becomes even stronger :-) |
| David Smith |
| >>>>>lavishing praise on the UK as an ‘indispensable partner’ And a huge financier of the gravy train LOL. They're frightened by the positive reaction Dave got and need our money. |
| Max max-at-midgetmax-dot-com |
| <<"the URL link that you posted has reset the thread's column width">> Well that's new to me! I have been posting on the BBS since some time last century and occasionally see these wide screen messages, but hadn't realised that is how they are caused. I sort of assumed that all messages typed are limited to 80 characters, or whatever the normal standard is. |
| Guy |
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