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MG Midget and Sprite General - oil cooler kit ...question

Im in the process of ordering a basic oil cooler kit from moss or victoria brit

Im going the 13 row mocal with stainless steel hoses

in the photo of the kit it dosnt show the sandwhich plate for the stainless steel hose kit, but does on the rubber hose kite... on both sites

victoria british didnt know what a sandwhich plate is and thinks im talking about the shroud, (seriously really), and couldnt find any referance to it in there computer

Moss... thought it came with it but wasnt sure and thought there was a decent chance id have to source that seperatly

Does anybody know for certian if one of these 2 places kits definatly comes with the sandwhich plate for the stainless steel hose kit ... cause Im really not wanting to source out a sandwhich plate for BSD fittings... some kind of british standard... thats got potential nightmare written all over it

or does someone know of another source I can buy a complete blot on with no extra moddification work and go drive type of kit ..... MUST BE 13 row mocal cooler and stainless steel braided hose with a sandwhich plate... NOT rubber hoses


OR DOES THE STAINLESS STEEL KIT MOUNT WITHOUT A SANDWHICH PLATE.... Gez is that a possability, and how bad would that be

thanks guys

Prop
Prop

Prop

A oil cooler replaces the external(pipe) oil feed to the filter (or is it a return?)
In the proces eliminating a terible bajo bolt whitch is holding back proper oil flow.

So no sandwichplates needed
Onno Könemann

Prop,

Do fit an oilstat while you at it so the oil is only cooled when required rather than cooled all the time. You can fit a sandwich plate and they can be had with a built in oilstat or you can take off from the banjo location, which is oil out of the block, and run that to an oilstat and then run the output of the oilstat to the input on the filter head.

Do you have any empty gauge locations on you console?, oil temp out of block, oil temp into cooler, oil temp out of cooler, oil temp into filter, cooler operating light?.
David Billington

HHHmmm... Now thats interesting Onno,

Just to make sure I understand correctly, cause I think I understand what your saying

The 1st hose is hooked up from the back side of the engine block where the bango bolt for the oil line is positioned to. then that line is connected at the other end to the oil cooler then the 2nd hose goes from the oil cooler back to the oil filter housing ????

if thats the case... WOW, I didnt see that coming, I like that idea


Now Im really hoping thats what you meant... Im a fan of that idea, If thats not what you meant, then I may just do that little mod myself

Thank you Onno.... your an inspiration today for certian

Prop
Prop

"The 1st hose is hooked up from the back side of the engine block where the bango bolt for the oil line is positioned to. then that line is connected at the other end to the oil cooler then the 2nd hose goes from the oil cooler back to the oil filter housing ????"



EXACTLY!
Deborah Evans

hey David... yes I do have a gauge for that... (along with everything else hhaha)

I have an oil temp gauge that has the sensor mounted into the oil pan (sump) the sensor is via the the oil drain plug

I am going to do an oil thermo stat later this fall, but considering the complexity im brushing up into, Ill wait till fall to figure out how to instal the thermo stat... for now I just want to get the car up and running

ive been finding there are some compatability issues with the oil thermostates and how it connected to stainless steel hoses vs rubber hoses...for the rubber hoses you just cut them in half and push on the thermo stat, the stainless hoses you have to have fittings applied.... BDS fittings ... what ever the heck those are, im sure auto zone carries those by the case load...hahaha

at this point ... im just wanting plug, play and EASY go. I have little interest in wanting to reinvent the zipper for this project


Prop
Prop

Gez Deb,

Im so In LOVE with you, you are the sexiest girl i know! beauty, brains, and tools, you really are world Miss MG... Your the Greatest!


Thats exactly what I wanted to hear...Finally great news,

Can this oil cooler Installation really be that easy, Man i really hope so, this could be like changing spark plugs...


.hmmm, okay thats probably a bad example, cause I have stripped a spark plug out of a head before...HAhahaha

Prop
Prop

Yep, it's really that easy.

Just make sure the hoses are well protected/secured so they can't be chaffed by any sharp edges.
Dave O'Neill 2

Just to deviate from Prop's thread a little.

Dave Billington mentioned fitting an oilstat being a good idea.

As my car is a 1500 with the usual characteristics of that model to run a bit on the hot side, is the fitting of an oilstat necessary, as I would have thought it would have benefited from all the cooling it could get?

Deborah might have some thoughts on that.

Dave
D MATTHEWS

Prop as the experts say that is how to hook up an oilcooler on a 1275 ;)
get it fitted and get driving!
Onno Könemann

Dave,

The 1500 kits available from Moss and MGOC merely use a sandwich plate. However, MOCAL do a sandwich plate with a built in 'stat.

I recommend a 'stat on the 1500 (in fact with any engine) because the most wear occurs at start up and until the oil has come to working temp. If you don't fit a 'stat you will extend this period.

Furthermore, overcooling of the oil will mean that you get build up of sludge deposits and water contamination will not be removed leading to crankcase oil dilution.


Once the oil has come to working temp the stat will open to maintain the correct temp.
Deborah Evans

Prop,

MOCAL do a range of 'stats in 2 different pipe bores with threaded unions (JIC, BSP) so you can specify what you want, cut your SS lines, fit hose unions and put the 'stat in place.
Deborah Evans

Prop, re your comment on the other thread about the oil thermostat only having provisions for push on hoses and hose clamps. You can get a better thermostat with 3/8" female pipe threads which will take AN adaptors from several sources. I got mine from Pegasus Racing but try Summit and Speedway as well. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DER-13011/
The 3/8" pipe is almost .50" ID so works well with -8 AN or JIC fittings and hose. Most hydraulic shops will have push on fittings for -8 JIC which will eliminate hose clamps and still be good for up to 300 psi. Here's a photo of my thermostat plumbed with the push on type fittings and rubber hose.

B Young

Prop
I wasn't going to but in here but------I can't help it

I have complete respect for Deb. and everyone trying to help you here but it is going to end in disaster

The oil flow direction is opposite to what is being said here

The oil leaves the filter housing and travels through the steel pipe to the rear of the engine - this is the only oil supply to the engine so you HAVE to get it correct
It's important to know the flow direction to get the thermostat to operate corectly

ALSO there are two types of thermostat on the
market

1/ completley stops oil flow until temp. is reached

2/ bypass type

It will depend on how you plumb it up as to which one you need

Also remember this is your ONLY oil supply so keep all your hoses and fittings at least as big as the steel pipe or bigger

All the early MGB's here had oil coolers plumbed into them instead of the pipe and no thermostat control, it works fine without one -------have a google

Keep it simple

Hope this helps Willy
William Revit

The oil stat debate is interesting, but with the car currently sitting non started/running it has a sitting temp of about 90-95 .... In that case wouldnt the oil stat be...."Non - Functional" until the weather becomes more cool


To follow up on willys comment, he is correct about the direction of oil flow, which I had forgotten about till he mentioned it, with out the oil stat, I dont see an issue...


But with the stat, I can see where he is going, would I want a by pass stat, to avoid the stoppage of oil flow and would I want the oil stat in the hose before the cooler or the hose after the cooler
Prop



Bill thank you....

I was hoping the oil stat hook up was going to be along those line of ideas, I figured once I get the kit, then id see more of what im dealing with, and have a better idea of what to do, my hope is its like the other stainless steel braided lines ive built with aero AN fittings....just wasnt sure if this SS hose, would be the same as the other SS hose and be able to use aero AN fittings...but it sounds like you may have answered my thinking

I hadnt thought of summit racing/jegs, ill certianly give them a looksy

Btw....whats the shut off valve in your photo

Prop
Prop

Willy it's not fair to wind Prop up like that!

Prop - take no notice, the oil does really flow from the pump (which is on the back end of the camshaft so at the back of the engine) out the block at the big banjo union, down the external pipe and into the filter head. Then through the filter and into the block and along all the various oilways in the block to the bearings.
David Smith

"I have complete respect for Deb. and everyone trying to help you here but it is going to end in disaster

The oil flow direction is opposite to what is being said here

The oil leaves the filter housing and travels through the steel pipe to the rear of the engine - this is the only oil supply to the engine so you HAVE to get it correct
It's important to know the flow direction to get the thermostat to operate correctly"



Willy,

I never mentioned the oil flow direction because, without a stat it is moot.

However you are totally wrong in your assertion that the oil flows from the filter housing to the rear of the block via the external pipe.

Oil is drawn from the sump via the pick-up pipe to the oil pump at the rear left of the engine. From here it flows through a branchway - one leading to the oil pressure relief valve on the right side of the engine, the other leading to the banjo union at the rear right of the engine. The oil then flows down the external pipe to the filter housing. Once through the filter (passing from outside to inside) it enters the main gallery on the right hand side of the engine. From here tappings take it to the mains and (via the crank) big ends. There are also 2 further tappings that feed the cam bearings, the forward of which also supplys the rocker shaft and rockers.

For reference see: Vizard 'Tuning the A Series Engine', 3rd Edition, Page 428.


Deborah Evans

there's an echo in here ;-)
David Smith

Wow....how wrong am I, I really thought the oil came from the filter to the banjo bolt

I wonder what else I dont know....mmm, im pretty sure thats the only topic...hahaha

Thanks deb, you saved me once again

Prop
Prop

"there's an echo in here ;-)"

In here








In here









In here









In here













In here



;)
Deborah Evans

"Thanks deb, you saved me once again"



YW hon, HTH.

Though if you'd taken my offer up a year ago you'd have had a years worth of Midgeteering by now!
Deborah Evans

RED FACE here
Sorry guys I've been fiddling with too many B series things lately which flow the other way

Deb. As usual you are completley correct in what you say and I apologise to you, Prop and everyone on here for posting incorrect info. SORRY

Cheers Willy
William Revit

No problem there willy,,,,

we where sharing the same tooth brush, cause I was thinking the samething as you.

Time to drink a differant bottled water

Prop
Prop

Willy, for a minute I could have believed you - have heard things flow in the opposite direction down there...
:-)
David Smith

William,

I'm not sure about the B series as I've never done anything on one but the information here http://www.mgexperience.net/article/oilflow.html indicates it flows the same as the A series, maybe it's wrong?.
David Billington

Must just be that it flows differently - like the toilet!
rachmacb

"...like the toilet!"

You're assuming our's are plumbed! :)
Roger T

David's
Guys, I'm having a bad hair day, You are completley correct in that the oil flow of a "B" comes out of the rear of the block and travels TO the filter housing the same as an "A" series
For some reason I got it in my head it went the other way. pump-filter-pipe-block BUT it's not like that at all
It's
Pump-around the rear of the block-out the rear-into the filter housing-into the gallery

I remember hitting the oil gallery across the rear of the block with the boring bar offsetting bores, It's definatley there

Sorry if I have confused things - not the intention at all
Cheers Willy

Our toilets might appear upside down to you but they work ok for us
ha ha ha ha ha

William Revit

LOL - stick to the buckets then?!?!?!?!?!

Prop - have you fitted this or not yet - you aren't making up some overly complicated method ARE you?
rachmacb

Rachel, this is our buddy Prop we're speaking of, I can guarantee you it will be far more complicated than necessary by the time he gets it installed. ;-)
I suspect that when he's done and gets a chance to test the car the temp will still be a bit high for his tastes and he'll want to install extra cooling fans just for the oil cooler or such. LOL
B Young

Well - I have a friend who has a separate fan on their oil cooler - and, instead of the general oil temp gauge, they did have a specific one for oil temp flow - I had a horrid idea that Prop had heard of this and was doing the same ........!!!!!! Having said that, the engine is a whole load bigger than Props, and he abuses it terribly!

The utter silence is always worrying though - I know it's hot over there, but, he can't have melted ..... can he?
rachmacb

I've had 5 e-mails from him this morning, not to worry Rachael. He's patiently waiting for his oil cooler kit to arrive in the mail so he can begin working on it. He got his fittings for the wing vents yesterday and now is trying to figure out what type of mesh or grill he wants in them. Of course we've had to do the math on the total vent area a few times already. Compared to the rear facing vent on my bonnet his 6 port holes should give about the same square inch area as mine. With three port holes on each side it will probably be renamed the Black Hole Buick Midget.
B Young

LOL Bill - patience isn't normally a word I would associate with Prop ......!

At least his engine bay will be cool - even if he's not :)
rachmacb

Oi wonders wot colour he is gonna paint the oil cooler?

Is he gonna paint it with truck bed sealer?


O


M


G



I hope not

Prop

K
I

vf

S
S
Bill 1

Always a thinker, never a kiss-er....hahaha

Well as always good news and som minor bad, good 1st im going to keep the installation easy and simple, I even purchased the cooler mounting bracket. Im going to install it the simplest way I can without the thermostate,...should arrive on thursday

the bad or Fun news... in the fall before it gets cool ill install the thermostat with lots of super complexity, im thinking with mulitple temp sensors in the oil galleys. Imagine being able to monitor oil temp From 5 or 6 differant oil galley locations...Im thinking ill just need another 3 oil temp gauges how cool is that, MORE GAUGES

NOW here is another idea..what about an oil flow gauge .... I could measure the oil flow speed and the flow volume of the oil, yeah I could see that working

Hahahaha

Prop....what did you expect anything less...hahaha
Prop

"...stick to the buckets..."

No Roger, no! Let that one go through to the keeper! :)
Roger T

Lol Roger - safe call!!!

Prop you just need one gauge and that can be swapped for the oil temp one anyway!

I am pleased that, for once, you're sticking to the basic principle of KISS - I could almost kiss you for that - but then, I suppose we will have to see!
rachmacb

Prop
If you insist on using braided lines, make sure they are well clear of the + terminal of coil.
Phil 'don't ask me how I know'
Phil Burke

Phil...we are brothers, ive been there and done that also....haha

Sparky, weldy, smoky, no more worky hosey

Prop
Prop

I'll be fitting an oil cooler next time I change the oil, and I've seen references to isolating the radiator from vibration.

I've got some spare Weber mounting grommets - the rubber and washers that are used to isolate the carb from the engine vibration - and I wondered if anyone had an opinion on using these between the oil rad and the mounting bar to limit the bad vibes :)

So - good idea or crazy halfwit suggestion that will lead to iminent catastrophe?

Thanks,

OSM.
OrangeSpyderMan

What a great day,

I almost have the oil cooler in, just down to removing the fitting n the oil filter houseing....wouldnt you know thats the one thats frozen solid, so tomarrow ill have it removed and then torque eveything down and its ready to fire

Btw ...thanks osm, for the heads up on the vibration control of the oil rad, I got some rubber washers and placed them in between stainless steel flat washers and placed between the mounting bracket and the oil rad... And made them 2 deep, for a total of 3/16 inch, so I think that should provide lots of dampnimg then I got nylon hose straps to hold the hoses in place, so no movement in those. And ill use anti sezure compound on the treads, so im hoping it will all work good tomarrow this time

Later

Prop
Prop

NP Prop - let me know how well that works (or doesn't :D ) cos I'll be doing the same thing soon.
OrangeSpyderMan

Ill do osm....ill snap a photo for you for later in the day

Prop
Prop

I have 2 more thoughts id love to have some opinions on.

1. The oil rad sits fairly high up on the mounting bracket in front of the water radiator.....is there any Pro or Neg benifits to turning the bracket up side down so the oil rad sits down a little further,,,,we are talking about 1.5 inches, which dosnt sound like a lot but considering the small amount of space volume in this area, it seems like it would be a big deal.

Id just hate to loose the effectiveness of my water cooling system which is absolutly perfect, never gone above 180 degrees yet, and thats only when my oil was hitting 260 to 280 when I was trying to drive to wisconsin

2. Am I getting a false positive on my oil temp reading ???

The reason I ask, is I have an electric oil temp. gauge, and I have the sensor mounted into the drain plug,,,,which is the lowest spot of the oil pan, so im wondering if hot oil tends to hang around at the vary bottom and never gets circulated or ......

The oppisite side of that debate is the oil is continually slushing around as your driving down the road....creating all kinds of circulation and the oil gets cooled

So what are your thoughts

Prop
Prop

Prop,

Bought my bracket a dozen years ago from Victoria British. No problems with the install, or performance. Item No. "3" on the illustration. Here's a link;


http://www.victoriabritish.com/icatalog/sm/full.aspx?Page=58

Regards,

Larry C.
Larry C '69 Midget

Thats the one I got, its even claims to be hertiage orginal, it wasnt to bad, I just rebent the braket on one end in a vice with a hammer about a 3/8 then redrilled the holes " 3/8 inch lower on one side of the radiator bay, and it slipped right into place.

The real issue so far has been getting the fitting out of the oil filter assembly, finally gave up and pulled the alt to get to the oil filter assembly and pulled it, then was finally able to get the elecric impact wrench on it....it would never have come out any other way,

So I got it half put back togather....im guessing 2 more hours and it will be completly done....so looking forward to trying it out tomarrow as the silicone...aka (gasket stuff) has Ito sit up aboutt 12 hours

Prop
Prop

Its in !!!!!

Wow...agian, I underestimated how long that was going to take, that was a lmg weekend, I guess I could have done it if it wasnt so freakrn hot outside....work 20 minutes sit in front of the air condition for 40.

So I got to just button up the car, such as grill, some wiring, expanslion tank ect ect

Just a couple of notes

The anti siezute compound was a great idea, might want to remove horns 1st,,,,,its tight with hands, I did the rubber washers between the oil rad and the bracket, will see how tthat works, leavimg everythimg loose to last is a must, the fitting in the oil filter housing is a freaken bear to remove


Hopefully tomarrow evening I can try it out

Prop
Prop

As for putting the bracket in upside down - I was thinking exactly the same so I'll give it a try. Which way up did you put yours in in the end?

OSM
OrangeSpyderMan

Well - mine's on, and I have the same bracket as prop but no drilling was required. Put it on the "right way up" as the other way, although looked neater, fouled on the horns.

After a test run this evening is seems to be working well, gained about 20psi at idle when hot, which was the aim (summer can get quite warm here). No apparent negative impact on the coolant temp anyhow, so I guess putting the bracket "upside down" is a red herring anyway.

Had to fabricate a little bracket, with which I'm not terribly happy, for the thermostat so I'll have to keep an eye on that.
OrangeSpyderMan

Good job osm....

So did you have fun tightening up the hardware for the bracket ....i could not get my hands or tools around the horns ..... That part just took forever

How much of a differance was there in the oil temp, .... 20 psi, wow now thats alot, I hope I can get thay much also....im guessing you get even better driving down the highway,,,due to the air circulation around the oil rad cooling it down

I got sick today, from the heat, I got way to over dehydrated yesterday....so I didnt get to finish the car tonight...so not sure when ill get back on it....supposed to be around 100 everyday the rest of the week

Prop
Prop

Yeah - getting the screws through for the bracket was fun - had the oil cooler mounted to the bracket and just jiggled it in place. Got just enough finger in to get the screw through the hole, as the proverbial actress said.

I thought about moving the horns, but I figured it was probably more work and not that much easier taking them off and putting them back on :)

I have no oil temp guage, so I can't comment, but the idle oil pressure is just a shade lower than where it is when cold. It was getting late so only had a run in it long enough to feel the cooler hoses getting hot to the touch.

Ambient temp was only about 85 of your degrees, though, so not a really hot day.

OSM.
OrangeSpyderMan

I think your right osm

Mounting the cooler last would have been easier, I have a really long pair of needle nose plies is how I put 2 of the screws in, then had to play "Have you hugged your fender today" doing a reach around to wrench them into place

So after hearing about your experiance I cant wait to try mine,esp on a day like today...105 F. reg temp heat index of 115.....gez what I wouldnt give for 85 F. Im envious for sure


Other news I saw a orange MGB, chrome bmper in the mall parking lot at lunch time today....1st ive seen in a year

Prop
Prop

This thread was discussed between 22/07/2011 and 02/08/2011

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