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MG Midget and Sprite General - Norway

Just to say how are thoughts and prayers are with all our Norwegian MG friends, families and all Norwegians.

Peter and Sandra Burgess
P Burgess

Absolutly peter,

So tragic, ive thoght about commenting, but just didnt see the point, it was just a redundant weekend with this kind of thing, we had several similar incidents this weekend involving several childrens parties and a casino

I just cant belive this idiot will be completely free in 21 years from now at the elderly age of 51 and thats if the judge throws rhe max book at him....i heard the count was 93 this mornimg, but hoping that # was a news head faux paw

Im thinking this guy wont be eildgeable for a noble award anytime soon




Prop....
Prop

Hi Prop,

I read about the roller skating rink shooting and felt just as sad.
we live in troubled times :(

Peter
P Burgess

I didn't read the skating rink shooting - such a god-awful weekend of loss of youth and innocence :(

Makes you remember the ghastly effects of extremism on any topic
rachmacb

Can't agree more

And it is 31 years as the judges have the possibility to add 2*5year for gruesome acts.
I think this counts
Onno Könemann

Nobody ever claimed democracy and freedom of speech was easy. I'm sure however that the Norwegians have their own equivalent of Broadmoor. I'm sure this lunatic will never walk free.
I noticed in one of the weekend papers that the Governor of Texas has broken Bush junior's record for sanctioning "legal" executions, even when asked for clemecy by the prosecutors. Food for thought at a terrible time. I can't see that two wrongs ever make a right personally but perhaps if I was the parent of one of the teenagers I might think differently.
Matt1275Bucks

Oh my god,

I just saw the news footage, its a SEA of flowers, appeartly an entire city block, amd has closed off the street with so many candles and flowers, an estmated 150,000 morners have showed up so far

Good day to be in rhe flower and candle business

It reminds me pf the flower footage when lady di passed away from the car crash
Prop

Unfortunately this guy is not a lunatic. He is quite sane as far as I can tell. And more worrying is the fact that he's not alone.

There have always been people like this (look back at history), but today they have easy access to more than sticks and stones. They can obtain guns, explosives, and even planes, with which to kill as many people as they can.

Sure some people are off their rocker, and you can debate what to do with them. You can try and understand them and even attempt to cure them.

But, as far as I am concerned, killing a sane killer, is not creating another wrong. It is merely getting rid of dangerous and troublsome vermin.

Fortunately for me, I am not troubled with thoughts of the morality of taking a human life when it is a danger to others. I would happily pull the trigger or open the hatch, or throw the switch or push in the needle.

To the argument that execution is not a deterrent, I say, well there's one dead killer that wont kill anybody again. Get all the information you can from him, and then get rid if him.

And to the argument that says you create a martyr whom others will follow, I say you dont need to create martyrs to see the spontaneous appearance of people like this who are willing to kill others. They are all too common.

Troubled times have always been with us. Look anywhere in the world at any point in history. It's part of the story of the human race.
Lawrence Slater

Now let's not polute the memory of the dead and wounded with a never ending discussion about what punishment should be given.
Onno Könemann

I agree with you onno, we have been down this road, an we know the opinions of the BBS are as numerious as those posting, I think its important to share our support for those that are living with this act of cowardous that has been thrust upon them

For me, its beyound comperhinsion....how does someone go to a private island filled with holiday children then spend 2 hours hunting them down like ducks in a bathtub....i just cant get my mind around that


Prop
Prop

What?

I can't express my outrage in the way I think fit?

You say what you want, I and I'll say what I want. Its called freedom of speech.

And punishment is pointles in a case like this.

I doubt that the surviving victims, friends or family are reading a MG bbs just now.

Lawrence Slater

Hi Lawrence

You may not be correct about Norwegians not reading the BBS. There is a strong Norwegian MG contingent. There are only around 5 million Norwegians. Many people we know will be affected. It might just be the case someone is 'just going through the motions' as we tend to do when in shock and checks the BBS for the sake of 'continuity' or 'normality'. Hopefully our threads will give a little support.

You sre quite right that freedom of speech allows you to site capital punishment. The only problem to me is as Matt says, seldom do two wrongs make a right.

Most difficult isn't it?

Peter
P Burgess

Totaly with Prop on this one
I just can't understand


Freedom of speach does not mean every thing should be said
Onno Könemann

Some things are too bizarre for the norm to understand but the wealth if feeling in Norway shows the importance of a country pulling together for their own future.

Such a moving tribute for those who died.
rachmacb

Peter,

I have no doubt that Norwegians and plenty of others do read this thread. But I doubt that if they are a victim in some way, that they are likely to be reading an mg bbs at such a time.

However, for those that do as you say continue to go through the motions of normality, I have said nothing that some norwegians aren't themselves saying.

There is a lot of anger in that country now, as well as pain, and rightly so.

Your premise that two wrongs don't make a right is based on the belief that to take a human life is always wrong.

I don't subscribe to the that view. Hence for me it is in fact entirely the right thing to do eventually, in a case such as this.

(I note you use the word seldom, so I suspect you are not neccessarily fixed on this).

Yes it is difficult. When I read about this kind of thing, and more recently see, as in media reporting via video, or see in person, suffering caused unjustly, I am as impotent as most people in the world with regards what we can do about it. So one thing i do is express my oppinion and excercise my right, that people like Breivik, would seek to deny me.

and as regards "Freedom of speach does not mean every thing should be said".

I couldn't disagree more vehemently.

EVERYTHING should be said. That is how you challenge ideas, particularly ideas of the type held by this killer and his group(s).
Lawrence Slater

.....and dare I say not stand in judgement if his views do not concord with ours, no matter how abhorrent they be?
Matt1275Bucks

I don't mind his views, he's entitled to them, even though I don't share them, it's his actions that cause a problem.
Lawrence Slater

Hey lawerance,

Whats happening here, is we have kown each other for many years and we all pretty much know each others views, and how one another think, and we have views all over the board, as an example I perfer biblical street justice over law and order, and thats not a secreat, everyone knows me, knows that...others belive strongly in forgiviness and reform

For me, I dont see how hashing out this old age debate, serves any good, or adds to the cohision we share with each other, to me we share a common thread, shock and disdain, and a scence of real loss and sadiness

Its difficult for me to look at this and not feel sad on several levels, obviously the loss of children, the high body count cause it speaks to the bruitality of it, but what guts me most, is this nations loss of innocents....that to me is the real gut killer, this was a nation id say you say was a golden trevier dog, vary loving, trusting, and greeted the world with a smile and a coke, I doulbt many houses ever had working door locks....now thats gone, and will never come back

For me it just seems wrong to comment in victrolic fashion, cause this isnt my home land, they, have there own views, and not my place to condemn a nation that dont share my view

For me this is just so tragic, sharing my pesonal views on crime and punishment, I just dont see how that adds to quality of a human being ...it wont change anything, but I think will it actually add to the dis-coarse of the human experiance

Just my ramblings I hope that made some scence

Prop
Prop

"to me we share a common thread, shock and disdain, and a scence of real loss and sadiness"

Amen to that Prop. And that comes from a non-believer too.

As regards crime and punishment, I think acts such as this, go far beyond that.

Acts like this are far more than a crime, they are an assault on the right to life of large groups of peoples. There can be no punishment for this, it's beyond punishment. Punishment is to deter and to change behaviour. When an individual or group are prepared to act as this guy did, he and they are beyond deterrence and change.

Our world has a big problem, it's not only Norway, or the US or the UK. Its world wide.

"we share a common thread, shock and disdain, and a scence of real loss and sadiness".

Whatever other views we hold that differ, that common thread dictates that eventually, we will all have to reach a concensus, on how to deal with the kind of barbarity displayed in Norway, and how best to prevent it.

It's either that, or in disagreement, learn to live with the seemingly almost daily reports of masacre of one kind or another, filling the news, as has been the case for the last x number of years.

I would like to return to a world where you left your door open as it were, but unless we fight for it, then your right, it's gone forever.
Lawrence Slater

No matter my thoughts and beliefs, this is an issue for norway to decide, once my thoughts are being forced on the people of norway, then it becomes a military occuption if they choose to persue a diffeant direction....frankly im ready to trust others to make decissions that govern there own lives, even if I dont agree with there ideas and beliefs, I just think what ever the outcome has got to be better then the current situation my nation has found its self in

If the people of norway decide to provide threapy, love and lots of group hugs OR stone him in a public square by small children. With sling shots and bb guns...thats there call to make....not mine, if he does this on my soil, then id want 1000 lashes with a thorny posine ive vine before his stoning, but that just me

im just saying, wishfully wishing the life of misary we want this animal to suffer does nothing in the grander skim, .. What ever justice needs to be dealt, norway will administer it, for myself and many on this board....there is no point to the debate, all we can do is stand united as a group And say to norways people....rest,heal, we have your back. We stand with you in this time of hardship.


Beyound that, its simple not my place to decide this animals fate, that privladge is researved and belongs to the people of norway. To debate it, is to be like 2 ticks on each side of a dog debating which side of the dog taste better....its illrealevant and serves no real purpose

Prop


Prop

Hi Prop,

This guys fate, whatever that may be, is not the answer. Stone him, burn him, whatever, just get information from him first, after that he is expendable. Of course I agree its up to the Norwegians, not the world. What they do with him per se, ultimately is almost irrelevant.

It's what he represents, extremists on both ends of the spectrum, that needs to be addressed. He might well have carried out his act in the US, or the UK, his beliefs are widespread.

Of course offer moral and emotional support. It soothes for a while. But when the dust settles, we are ALL still left with the problem of what to do about views that lead to acts like this. There will be more, that much is easily predicatable.

Our planet is small now, made so by the ease of travel and communication. Hence the problems of one Scandinavian country, matter to us all, in ways more than just compassion for their pain.

I agree, an mg bbs is not the most effective place to have a debate about this, but I dont agree that's it's pointless discussing it.

Some people never read any news papers, or watch any news, but do read bbs or follow face book.

Wherever there is dialogue is a good place for debate. be it in a bar, on a bus, or on a bbs.


Lawrence Slater

I send to the victims, their families, friends, and all people of Norway, a silent prayer.

Kindest Regards,

Larry C.

Larry C '69 Midget

This thread was discussed between 25/07/2011 and 27/07/2011

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