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MG Midget and Sprite General - NMC Spitfire Browning fires after 70 years

Fantastic, and the engine looks good too
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15652440
Gary & Gaps

There aren't enough or sufficient words are there.

I've got a great big lump in my throat.

My childhood was all about reading wwii stories, and building airfix models. My favourite service was the RAF. My favourite planes were the spits and hurricanes.

Superb.
Lawrence Slater

Having a bit of Irish blood and being married to an Irish lass I can see that there is indeed a bit of magic in the "Old Sod". Fantastic preservation of the bits. I suppose that next they'll get the engine running again.
B Young

Gary,

Thanks for that, enjoyed it very much.

Regards,

Larry C.
Larry C '69 Midget

Absolutely bloody marvelous!

And reading the comments thread below the article is also great (and there are hundreds).

Thanks for posting that Gary!

Norm "machines are cool" Kerr
Norm Kerr

Fascinating. Thanks for the link!

There's a related article here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13924720

By the way, I bought this book for my Dad for his birthday a couple of months ago:

http://www.amazon.com/Supermarine-Spitfire-onwards-Owners-Workshop/dp/1844254623/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1320948080&sr=1-1

If you're at all into Spitfires, it's excellent reading!

Cheers,

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

Great story.
The Goodwood Revival was the place to see them this year!

Neil K

Heard one take off from Duxford.....
It has been 2 years but I am still enjoying it in my head.
Onno Könemann

OK, now you've got me going on the books:

http://www.amazon.com/Spitfire-Pilots-Story-Crecy-Cover/dp/0947554726

and

http://www.amazon.com/Sigh-Merlin-Spitfire-Alex-Henshaw/dp/0947554831


are two of the most exciting, enjoyable and all around wonderful books about the world of aircraft in that era, and both are about the Spitfire (coincidence?), written by two very big players in its existence, Jeffrey Quill and Alex Henshaw (the chief test pilots at each of the Spit manufacturing plants during WWII). The descriptions by Henshaw of his stunt flying give me goosebumps (his writing has a lyrical voice), and they both describe in astonishing (re: scary) detail what it is like to operate test flights during wartime, without the aid of radar, when the visibility is often almost naught for days on end - navigating by the color of the clouds, basically!

Wow.
I've read both books multiple times, I highly recommend them to anyone interested in flight!


Norm
Norm Kerr

Very nice story. Last spring I was outside my house when I heard this unfamiliar sound. I live near a small airport and there's always something overhead, especially on a nice day. I looked up and there was a P51 Mustang with a Mk V Spitfire next to it. Both had invasion stripes. I'm like Onno, I can still hear the roar of those RR Merlins. That was the only time I've ever seen a Spit off the ground. Still sends shivers down my spine.
Martin Washington

'Invasion' Spit probably a MK IX with 2-stage 2-speed supercharger, 4-blade prop, and 4 cannon; one of the fastest of the Mark - certainly the fastest of the Merlin-engined ones (416mph). Check how many exhaust stubs... will have 6 per side instead of 3.

MKV was an interim version for 1941/2...(3-blades, 374mph, 2 cannon, 4 mgs) at this point in the war the Spit was beginning to be left behind in terms of speed by 109F and FW190. The MKIX fixed that... would be my choice for the hangar next to my quad-bay garage.

Love Spits, Hurricanes, Typhoons, Tempests, Mossies, ...

A
Anthony Cutler

I live in Kent.

This summer a wwii bomber made a very low level pass over Calverly Park in Tunbridge Wells. I'm not sure what it was, but the sound was of Merlin engines, I'm sure of it.

There are often spit or huricane fly overs in kent. I see or hear them at least a couple of times a year. It truly is musical.

I once sold a pair of brass RAF pilots wings (to my great regret now). They belonged to my mothers first husband. He was a navigator in a bomber squadron. He was killed in a training excercise somewhere up north in 1940, when their plane crashed. Amongst his recovered possesions were the set of wings. (dont know why he had them).

Years later, when I was circa 12/13, I wanted a pair of Levis. Being short of money, my mother gave me the wings to sell. I got five quid, bought a pair of Levis and probably broke her heart. Looking back I'd far rather have kept the wings, and worn shorts.
Lawrence Slater

When I moved to current house, I became aware that every summer in June a Spit flew along the hill, slow, with canopy open... passing several times. After a couple of years(!), I asked one of the older neighbours if he'd seen it, and was told that the old feller down the road (used to come up and talk if I was working on a car; later in a mobiity scooter) used to fly Spits in the war, and someone he knew would fly a tribute on his birthday. He was a really nice old boy - sadly gone some years back.

Sad to note too we are gradually losing a generation that were alive during this momentous period - from my perspective, some of the best engineers this country will ever see.

A
Anthony Cutler

Wow. That's a nice story Anthony.

You can walk past an old guy in the street, and you never know by just looking at him, that he may have been one of the few. Yes disappearing fast.
Lawrence Slater

I live near Headcorn Aerodrome in Kent - about 20 years ago a production company made a series called a Piece of Cake about the experiences of a squadron during the Battle of France and afterwards - they used Spitfires (first factual error - the RAF kept all the Spits for home defence and only deployed Hurricanes to France). There are of course many more flying Spitfires than Hurricanes.

The flying sequences were shot out of Headcorn - Spits taking off, Spits on Patrol in 'Vics', Spits getting bounced by ME109s etc etc... I wasn't working that summer (was at Uni then) and spent a lot of it in my dad's back garden watching the flight of Spitfires overhead or down at the aerodrome with my dad looking at the Spits take off and land...

One day we were close up to the Spitfires and an old chap turned up - his son spoke to the ground crew and they ushered him up to the plane and allowed him to sit in the pilots seat - clearly he was a former Spitfire pilot - I then heard him say 'Gosh, I haven't sat in one of these since 1941 when I had to leave mine quite quickly over Calais...'

Happy days... I lost my Dad about a month ago, but being reminded of that summer gives me another happy memory to cherish :)
James Bilsland

My condolences James.

I once jumped out of an aeroplane at Headcorn. I was more worried about landing in the next field as there was a bull in it!
By the way that was just a few months after a girl doing a static line jump drifted on the moving rotors of a helicopter!
The jump itself was quite fun (static line) but as a hobby there seems far too much waiting around for my liking. I'm sure that freefall must be quite different.
Gary & Gaps

>> ...experiences of a squadron during the Battle of France and afterwards - they used Spitfires

Yes - interesting (or if you're my wife... tedious) to hear that some of the Spits used in BoB films were MK Vs or MK IXs, which clearly didn't exist in 1940.

I groaned when watching a recently made film (Attonement) depicting BoB era, that showed 4-engined bombers overhead... argh. Was nearly thrown out!

A
Anthony Cutler

Anthony

I wasn't going to get into the issue of 4 bladed Spits with 20mm wing cannon painted in Green and Brown upper camoflage and masquerading as 2 bladed 8 gun Mk1s...

My wife thinks I'm a pedant too...

Regards

James
James Bilsland

Thank you Gary

Its not the Bull that you need to worry about at Headcorn - its the chap down the road who keeps a couple of Lions in an enclosure (I'm not kidding) - I don't think the Parachute club publicise that particular feature of the area...

James
James Bilsland

I have got to tell you about Miss Shilling's orifice, making this thread no longer "NMC" by bringing SU carburetors into it, the SU on the Merlin had fuel issues at negative Gs, which put the Spitfire (and Hurricane) at a disadvantage to the fuel injected ME109, so (excerpt to follow from Jeffry Quill's book, referenced above)...

"Complaints from the pilots led to a search for a solution. Beatrice 'Tilly' Shilling, a young engineer working at Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough, came up with a disarmingly simple solution. She introduced a simple flow restrictor: a small metal disc much like a plain metal washer. The restrictor orifice was made to accommodate just the fuel needed for maximum engine power, the power setting usually used during dogfights. It came in two versions, one for 12 psi manifold pressure and one for boosted engines with 15 psi manifold pressure.[2]

While not solving the problem fully, the restrictor, along with modifications to the needle valve, permitted pilots to perform quick negative G manoeuvres without loss of engine power, removing the annoying drawback the British fighters had had in comparison to the German Messerschmitt Bf 109 machine, which was equipped with fuel injection. Miss Shilling with a small team travelled around the countryside in early 1941 fitting the restrictors, giving priority to front-line units. By March 1941 the device had been installed throughout RAF Fighter Command. Officially named the 'R.A.E restrictor', the device was immensely popular with pilots, who affectionately named it 'Miss Shilling's orifice' or simply the 'Tilly orifice'."


":oD
Norm
Norm Kerr

I work at RAF Coningsby. Through the summer season, I get to see and hear them all day, along with the hurricane’s, Lancaster and a Dakota :)
Ste Midget K

I worked on the last Beufighters in the RAF, they were based in Singapore, and used as target tugs for the Navy to shoot at. One day the Navy got too enthusiastic, and one aircraft returned with a hole in its aileron.
The procedure for starting the beast, was to climb on to the wheel, up behind the engine, and operate the Kigas priming pump, whilst the pilot turned the engine over, you would then have a burst of flame from the exhaust, and be blown back over the tail. This procedure was then repeated on the other engine, when you were once again blown back over the tail.
You then had to get up between the running 8 ft. propellers, and disconnect the battery cart, whereupon you and the battery cart would be blown back towards the tail.
We only had one regular pilot, and he was very good at keeping the revs. down without stalling, whilst all this was going on. Sometimes we had relief pilots, who were not so good, and the prop blast could be quite severe.
At the end of our regular pilots tour of duty, these Two perfectly serviceable aircraft were destroyed by local scrap metal dealers.

Dave

Dave Barrow

The last flight, a beat up on one engine, you did not do this on the Beafighter, as they had a nasty habit of turning over, the guy was an ace.

Dave Barrow

Dave,

Where were the "elf and safety" officers, when you were being scorched and blown backwards? lol. :)
Lawrence Slater

Dave,
I think it was in Jeffrey Quill's book, a chapter named, "taking silk" about doing the initial test flights in the Beaufighter to identify its good/bad handling limits. During stall tests he got one into a terminal flat spin and had to bail out.

Being a test pilot, the absolutely last thing you are willing to do is to leave the plane, because getting (what is often the only one) back to base is almost as important as your own life. But this time he had no choice. While coming down he then watched in horror as the falling plane veered into a built up area and hit a house.

Luckily, no one was home.

Years later, his daughter was at university and her room mate said, "Wait, your father is Jeffrey Quill? He dropped a bloody great plane on my mum's kitchen!"


Norm "I love those books, and I envy you all who get to live near the planes themselves" Kerr

Norm Kerr

Dave and Norm. Great stories! Keeep them coming!
Matt1275Bucks

What great photos Dave thanks for them, this has been (still is I hope) one of those amazing threads that happen here sometimes.

Thanks Gary for the start, a wonderful testimony to the quality of our engineering guys back then. I have no doubt that modern kit would respond similarly under similar circumstances in later times, either.

Ask my missus, there is no bigger or noisier pedant than me when it comes to cinematic aviation. Late Spits in the Battle of Britain film made me just a tad angry as did painting the Spanish CASA 109s as Hurricanes to whirl around in the background. :(

I know they had to do it like that in the days before CGI but it rankles.

Another Alex Henshaw book worth reading is "The Flight Of The Mew Gull" about his record breaking flight to South Africa before the war, really amazing man Mr H.
Bill 1

This is a nice clip of the Spitfires at Goodwood this year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tLGQajXkY4
Neil K

This is relatively on-topic... just before Halloween I took the Midget out for a Saturday drive, and as is my regular practice, headed up to the northeastern part of the county for a look at the airport. Occasionally you can see something interesting happening, and as luck would have it, their Fall Open House was that day. So I ended up staying for most of the afternoon.

I'd left my camera at home, but managed to get some pretty good shots with my phone. For a phone camera it's surprisingly good, but it makes spinning props look very strange. :-)

Here's a link to the pics, which include quite a few shots of our local B-25, a guest AT-6 Texan, the resident TBM, and misc. others:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/safety_fast/sets/72157627980856981/with/6335561508/

Cheers,

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

great set from "the thread that keeps giving" thanks Gryf

Bill
Bill 1

Lawrence

Health and safety had not been invented in those days, which was also the reason we worked all day on a tropical airfield dressed only in shorts. Skin cancer also had not been invented. I guess I was lucky.

Dave Barrow

Dave is that you? Great pic.:)
Lawrence Slater

Yes that was me, and I haven't changed a bit ::

Another picture, as there is some interest.
The basher (palmed hut) was where the tea waller operated from, you could not have an RAF operation without a tea wallah. (I might have got the spelling wrong on that)

Dave

Dave Barrow

Dave,

Those pictures are great.

Here are a couple of "friends" that I visited this summer at the Flying Heritage Collection started by Paul Allen of Microsoft fame. They live about 20 miles from me in Everett, Washington and all of the planes in the collection fly.

Here's a Hurricane

Martin Washington

And here's a Spit

Martin Washington

Thanks, Martin... 'taint right to leave Hurricanes out of this chat.

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

I went to dinner with friends the other night, and during the conversation I asked, as you do when consuming red wine, "bet you've never heard of tillys oriffice?" Bloody hell, everybody had. lol.

And they talked about some other device called a Desmodromic valve. Said it was used in some wwii areo engines.

Ever heard of it anybody?

According to Wiki, it was invented in 1896, but I can't find reference to it's use in Spits or Huricanes.

After discussing Tilly, the conversation moved on to Top gear. I discovered that I had missed the following.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNvJUzrew58

Put on your earphones to listen to the engines. :)

Spits and Astons, British or what?

How much would you pay for a ride in a 2 seater spit then? Me lots. :)
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence -

Desmodromic valve trains use a special cam setup to close the valves as well as open them. No springs, no valve float at high rpm.

-:G:-
Gryf Ketcherside

Guess I'm spoiled and lucky at the same time. I volunteer at the Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum in Mount Hope as part of the groundcrew. I never get tired of seeing and hearing the Lancaster start up and fly, one of only 2 airworthy examples left in the world. However, ours is the only one you can fly in as the other is operated by the RAF with their Battle of Britain Memorial Flight and not publically accessable.

Flown in most of our airworthy aircraft at least once and never get tired of it. One of the most memorable flights I've had, apart from the Lancaster ones, was in a 2 seater Spitfire flying out of the UK in 2009. One hardly needed to move the control column to get it to respond and it was easy to see why it was such a loved aircraft to fly by the pilots who flew them.

We have an Avenger we are restoring to flight status and am looking forward to that as well. Spend the a week or a little more stripping all the paint off of it by hand. It was my contribution to the restoration. A dirty and smelly job thanks to the chemicals but someone had to do it! While I was doing that, I often thought of my father who worked on them and other types during the war. Wonder what he'd say if I could tell him I've worked on an Avenger too?
Clive Reddin

This thread was discussed between 10/11/2011 and 14/11/2011

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