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MG Midget and Sprite General - Nigel Atkins Visit

Hi Nigel

Well, we both seem to have survived till this morning :) Rolling road was fine yesterday and hopefully your car is in fine fettle.

Safe journey up and we look forward to seeing you for your 1.30 session.

PS Carole's Cafe near the Alfreton Railway Station does super yummy bacon and egg/sausage etc cobs...even jacket potatoes and salads for the healthier options....visit after a trip to us and Carole can tell you have been at our unit from the engineering smells :)

Peter
P Burgess

So now we are all in anticipation about what is going to happen!

Will Nigel make it?
Will Peter survive breakfast?
Will the RR be able to stand the power of Nigels midget?
Or will aliens invade and hold Nigel back?

I hope we will soon find out.
Onno Könemann

And where does it mention rolling roads in the owners handbook ...?

Stay tuned for another enthralling episode.

Ok - I don't actually remember the whole end of superhero programmes - as can be seen!!!
rachmacb

Cobs... There's a reminder of my Langley Mill days..

Bread buns, Bread cakes, Bread rolls, Stotties and Cobs... What do you call them..?

Peter, why Avon..?

See you at Midget 50...? Be nice to catch up...

Mark.
M T Boldry

No sign of aliens yet Onno. I survived the trip to work. Luckily I do not eat Breakfast so nothing to choke on.

Rach......hidden code in the workshop Manual, take every fifty eight and halfth letter join together and it says...eat at McDonalds....Bum, every other letter after that....beware the Jonah....Got it, think of a number and double it then every other letter...Gettest thine car dynoed or else! :)

Peter
P Burgess

well the car is protesting but it will be dragged on to the rollers

I hope it doesn't go for Peter and damaged him, be on your guard Peter

As normal I'll be driving my wife to drink, pub already sorted but an afternoon tea may be required

but the big question is will Peter survive the trauma of our visit, me, the wife and one of my cars altogether, only time will tell

N Atkins

Mark....says Avon cos it wont let me alter the details!

Baps...Butties etc etc

Peter
P Burgess

baps are called rolls down here

must now prepare for todays adventure
N Atkins

Off topic, but it's strange how one man's "down here" is another man's "up there".

Gary
Down here in London.
Gary & Gaps

Gaz
I thought the same--
From down here you are over there-
William Revit

Have fun Nigel

Peter don't break the rollers, I'll need them soon too.

Bill 1

I thought we were all 'North of Watford Gap'

Peter
P Burgess

"I thought we were all 'North of Watford Gap'"


No, not all of us. ;)



Reading Peters discription of that meal im so looking forward to my big fat cooked breakfasts comming weekend.

Arie de Best

Hi Arie

If you drew a line across from you, depending which part of Holland you are in....you may well be an Honourary Northerner like my goodself rather than a Softie Southerner :)


Peter
P Burgess

Peter, not sure if the straight line drewing works as the earth is round, didnt anybody tell you? :)

Btw, in holland its important if your from the west, the rest of the country simply doesnt matter, if you dont believe me ask Onno. (who lives 15minutes away from me) ;)

By saying this there is a good chance I wont survive the anual Dutch Spridgetweekend at the eastborder...

LOL!
Arie de Best

"Peter, not sure if the straight line drewing works as the earth is round, didnt anybody tell you? :)"

That all depends upon whether you are using a Mercator or an Orthomorphic Conical Projection! On the first it's a Rhumb Line, on the second it's a Great Circle.
Deborah Evans

Lol Peter- amazing where one can get strange messages from ...!!! Even the great midget handbook - I shall have to read it backwards whilst dancing around a tree on my hands at midnight - or was that the raindance for Midget50 ....:!!!!
rachmacb

Peeking out of the unit it looks like darkening rain clouds looming from the Birmingham direction and coming this way.....Nigel must be on his way.


I thought the Great Circle was the Intergalactic Sign of the Doughnut in Mars Attacks?

Peter
P Burgess

For any thing east past Utrecht you need a pasport.
So for once Arie is correct ;p
Onno Könemann

The north-south divide is acurately measured by those who speak properly! That is to say we say bath instead of barth, grass instead of grarse.
I may live in leafy Buckinghamshire but my roots my heart and my rrrs are firmly from the north. To be honest anywhere south of the Antonine Wall is down there in my opinion!
M Smethurst

Sadly I say Barth and Grarse, as I said Honourary Northerner :) How do you say Water? Should be Watter to rhyme with Matter......
P Burgess

"anywhere south of the Antonine Wall is down there in my opinion!"

Ive never heard of Antonines wall, but then again I am a forreigner. ;)
M Smethurst, youre sure its not Hadrians wall?



Debs, my knowledge only goes as far as a compass, your discribtion is real sience fiction to me... :)

Arie de Best

The Antonine Wall ran from roughly between Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Building it started in AD142 under the order of Emperor Antoninus Pius, but it was only occupied for some 20 years before the Romans retreated to Hadrian's Wall.



"Debs, my knowledge only goes as far as a compass, your discribtion is real sience fiction to me... :)"


Given that the Earth is round (actually it is an Oblate Shperoid [ie it is flattened at the Poles]and not a true sphere), then if you try to map it onto a flat surface you inevitably cause distortions in your chart.

There are 2 basic mapping Projections (actually there are more but these are rather specialist so I won't confuse the issue).

Firstly the Mercator Projection, which is formed by wrapping the flat sheet around the Earth in the shape of a cylinder and the Earth projected onto it. This is accurate at the mapping meridian (or Transverse Meridian if it is a Transverse Mercator) but the distortion becomes apparent the further you move away from this. Eg Coastline shapes become distorted. However a straight line on this projection is a line of constant bearing so it makes navigation easy. Such a line is called a Rhumb Line and is useful for shorter trips.

For longer trips the shortest distance between 2 points on the Earth's surface is known as a Great Circle; examples include the Equator and all the Lines of longitude.

The second Projection is the Orthomorphic Conical. Here the flat sheet is formed into a cone placed at either Pole (or even Transversely) and the Earth projected onto it. On this type of chart, any straight line is in actual fact a Great Circle and so is not of constant bearing.
Deborah Evans

Nigel has made it ok, car and owner safely in unit, mind you he hasn't drunk one of our teas as yet :)
P Burgess

"we say bath instead of barth, grass instead of grarse."
in reality we say shower and lawn.

'water' I think is pronounced 'lager'
David Smith

There are Northeners, of which I'm one, and there are Yorkshiremen, of which I'm not.
Yorkshireman's prayer:
Hear all, see all, say nowt.
Eat all, supp all, pay nowt.
And if ever tha does owt for nowt, make sure tha does it fo' thee sen.

Bernie.
b higginson

They must be finised by now but still no numbers or report........
Onno Könemann

I thought it was ...you can tell a Yorkshireman...BUT NOT A LOT !


All went well with the dyno and we squeezed a few more geegees out with a tad less advance and weaker needles....only thing that went wrong ....Nigel's front mudflap detached itself when clunking over the rollers :( Nigel says he will post the graphs.

The day got more and more hectic as we did an emergency tune on a 1958 Cooper F1 car....207 bhp at the flywheel...not too shabby from a 2 litre!

Next stop (after a Harley testing day tomorrow)......loads of juicy midgets on Friday.

Peter
P Burgess

The Antonine Wall...
I now kno there is one and where it is.
Who said this bbs is not eductional?

Debs, after your explanation of the earth-maps I got reminded picking something up on that last sunday eve on the bbc program Coast.
They mentioned the guy who made the first correct map of the round earth and still has all the distances drawn right.
Late 18th century?
Btw, are comming to midget50 too this weekend?
Love to see your racer in action on the A1. LOL!!



The Northeners, how did they call them in Guy Ritchie Lock, stock and two smoking barels?
ah I remember: "those f*cking northen monkeys" :)

I do like the lancashire and Yorkshire accents tho!
always make me smile when I hear it.
Arie de Best

Yorkshire men??

Classic British humour especially for Yorkies. :)

http://is.gd/I9pYUK
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Bob(R) LOL!!!
That was absolutly brilliant!!
Arie de Best

Aye Arie that was Mercator a Flemish man, he did it in 1569.

I'll be at Midget 50 but without the Racer - I'd imagine the local Constabulary might have something to say if I took it up the A1!
Deborah Evans

Aw Deb, gonna be so many cool looking Midgets and Sprites they will prolly not even notice yours



Unless Arie wakes them up with his little toy lol

When you are there do come and say hello won't you?

If Arie hasn't stolen it I will be in some kind of 'orrid orange 'at

I'll be the only worried looking fellow there :)
Bill 1

Of COURSE I'll come and say Hello Bill - be nice to put faces to names. :)
Deborah Evans

Peter B,

Are you going to M50 ?

As well as hoping to meet up after reading your gospels for so long, I must admit to a further motive (spare cylinder head for modding)- ahead of a r/r session when fitted.

R.
richard boobier

well this thread is even more random that one of my posts

firstly great to meet Peter and his 'attractive assistaints' and also Dave O'Neill

well what

- fantatic value and great service

from Peter

I was using the brakes a lot more than normal on the way back

he must know his stuff as he didn't ask to look at the Handbook once !

the car's appearance did scare him as I noticed Peter was extremely careful to fully strap it down very well

that mudflap feel off after coming off the first RR this time it needed a good tug so things are improving

if anyone is interested I'll post graph (just tipexing the numbers now)
N Atkins

er

should I have mentioned the assistants?




LOL

When I drove back down the A38 after my session there I just couldn't believe I was in the same car

And I'd been pretty damned smug about how well it went even before the "run"

Hope you left the rollers serviceable for the NW MASCers on Friday

:)
Bill 1

the '58 Cooper went on after me

I know even less about race cars than road cars but I suprised the owner by asking to be reminded to engine builder (Coventry Climax)

(only know the engine builder as he's in the same car club as me)

Cooper owner told me he was back from Monza and the car had been doing 155 down the straight (1958 technology and tyres remember)
N Atkins

Hi Richard

Unfortunately I cannot be at the event this weekend, if I ever get to work less days I will try and get to some of the events.

I will post the graph from the Cooper a little later today....just for a change we had to fit one of those Little Red Rooster Arms from the dizzy doc as the Lucas item gave a miss when warm....what a surprise.....James said the car was crap at higher revs when warm only did 155 mph!!!!!

We averted our gaze ( as one would being Englishmen and one Welshman) as James sat with legs each side of the steering column with his sporran covering his important little places :) What's this about an Englishman a Weslhman and a Scotsman?

Peter
P Burgess

Here is the power graph for the Cooper. I think Keith posted a video on youtube so I will get a link for that and post it.

Peter

P Burgess

Nigel has told me to put the graph up for him as we have a better grade of tipex :)

The transmission losses were 14.7 giving approx 85 at the engine.

The graphs are before and after tuning.

Peter

P Burgess

thank Peter I couldn't find my yellow marker pen anywhere

but I thought we agreed on 105, 90 and 100, never mind it's stretched enough for now next time we'll put more :)
N Atkins

in all seriousness

graphs like these don't fully reflect the real improvements in response (and mpg) power and acceloration in real world on the road (or even track) driving where your foot is not always to the floor or in the correct part of the rev range/pwer band (or even gear)

off the rollers and on the road (or track) the improvements can be appreciated more fully and properly

once again, thank you Peter and glamorious assistant

N Atkins

Very nice Nige!
Max power up and max torque at a lower RPM the best you can get it.

That cooper .......... cool!
Onno Könemann

soon after I first got the car with different bits and bobs fitted on a different RR max

(after full and proper servicing of course)

power was at higher revs and max torque was higher revs making the power band peakier

Peter was my third RR with this car, in 4 years) and by far the best value and results

more than I expected from the modest 'power improvements' on my engine - must be the full and proper servicing!!
N Atkins

What cam, valves, manifolds are you using?
Deborah Evans

Hi Nigel

When we first got the new rollers up and running a year ago we were pleased to see the power plotting at each rpm compared with 23 years of the old clayton water brake. At first we were a little dissappointed when we only saw small changes everywhere and were a little apologetic to owners sending them off for road tests to see what they thought. All, without exception reported the small differences were very marked on the road. It is just that we never saw so accurately what the power was doing before.

For instance, today we have been playing with a Harley owned by David Gollan (our consulting Engineer, co author of our books and long term good mate). Dave was playing with jetting settings, the carb is a cross between sus and fixed jet being CV with spring, needle diaphragm yet idle jets and main jets. We were fascinated to see the effects at different points of the rpm scale induced by slight (0.05 mm) changes to the jets, for instance idle jet pulls at full chat so changing from 0.45 to 0.42 lost 1 bhp (on 40 odd at the wheels) at high rpms.

The dyno shows bhp difference if you alter the tyre pressures by a few pounds....I wish I had invested in one years ago but didnt have the money :(

Peter
P Burgess

Deb,
one of the reason I bought the car was that it had a reported/claimed recon engine with just 50 miles on it

camshaft is reported/claimed as AS(? or is that as?)
125 - so possibly AS 125(??)

claimed reported as modified head (certainly was skimmed (again?) when the HG went 7,000 miles later),
lighten flywheel,
skimed head and block faces,
unleaded seat

certainly the engine always felt strong enough for an A-series Spridget but not a tarmac twister

other than this written information I don't know as engine is without a number

I've recently added a Maniflow s/s LCB, that was a good improvement over the previous LCB

Peter,
everything is now explained I'm currently running with an extra 2 psi over Handbook !! Onno and rach will be pleased - did that increase my at the wheels figures or reduce my losses?

will I get more power down if I put in another 2 psi or even more with 4 psi, I think I can get my tyres to 40 psi would that beat the Cooper?
N Atkins

Very well Nigel!

I believe it add's 4BHP per 2 psi ;P
So get them to hold an extra 300 psi and you will be well past.
Onno Könemann

Not a cam I know3 Nigel. I'm guessing you have std valves and rocker ratio and a tad more Static CR so 85 odd Flywheel BHP is pretty reasonable. :)


For some unexplainable reason I thought you had a 1500!
Deborah Evans

Here is the link to the Cooper on Youtube....just listen to the glug of the twin choke sus and watch em pop up and down as the engine fires!

http://youtu.be/G4lFNJGELmI

if the link doesn't work go to youtube and look at Hips67

Peter
P Burgess

Lovely!
Matt1275Bucks

Hi Peter you seem to be gaining some great data from your new road, what I was curious about however was a comment you made some time ago when you first got it.

If I remember correctly you suggested that the rolling road tune "experience" on the new RR was not as punishing on the engines as the old one might have been.

Is it possible to explain what you meant by that, or did I mis understand altogether.?
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Peter,

I take it that was a Climax FPF in the Cooper? It sounds LOVELY!





Got to love a loud, screaming, Climax!
Deborah Evans

Deb, nobody's ever heard of the cam, I think it's one the engine builder reprofiled themselves, as for 1500 you may be thinking of my disasterous experience with GT6 ownership

Rob, I noticed too that Peter put about the cars not getting so hot and I'd thought on the day it was because my car runs so cool and I'd got the cooling system so efficient by regular . . . well you know

the car left a spot of oil to remind me of my never getting the sump gaskets fully sealed, it never leaked until I replaced them
N Atkins

Some of those cars on your videos sound fantastic - loved the MGA with the supercharger - perhaps ....!
rachmacb

Hi Bob

Mostly we use the energy storage flywheel to test the bhp output. At times we use the power absorption unit to hold steady loads whether foot flat or part throttle, it is holding the power under heavy loads that allows the engine to get hot. If you are using some sort of strain gauge to read the power you have to hold the load. The energy storage system is very transient. Depending on power the runs may only take 10 seconds or so full throttle.

Does that make any sense?

Peter
P Burgess

Makes perfect sense Peter, many thanks.

I assume though if you are checking critical fueling (at higher power) then I assume you will need to hold it for a short while to ensure fuel does not deplete?
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Hi Bob

You are correct the tuning would not show if fuel supply does not match long term requirements, would need customers to tell us they have problem. Then test by holding load if customer happy for us to work engine hard. This would obtain even to old dyno.

Peter
P Burgess

This thread was discussed between 08/06/2011 and 10/06/2011

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