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MG Midget and Sprite General - Midget Front End?

I have just bought a 1975 Midget which has previously been restored and almost completed.

One concern is the front end appears to sit very high leaving a large gap between the top of the front wheels and the wheel arch, I have uploaded a photo which may help explain the problem, any advice if this is normal or if not any adjustments that can be made would be much appreciated.

There is only the spare in the boot and no petrol to weigh the back end down.

Any thoughts?

Thanks
Tim

T Lynam

Start by fitting 155/80r13 or 165/70r13 tyres.
The ones on there now are way to low profile and will give you a lot less comfort and a big speedo inaccuracy.
And the higher profile tyres will also fill the arches a lot better.

I think that will solve a big part of your problem

The next bit is not the front being to high but the rear being to low.
This can be a few things
-lowering blocks fitted
-1275 springs
-saggy old springs
-bad quality new springs
Onno K

Thanks for the ideas, it's a shame about the tyres as they appear to have done very few miles, but a few good points to consider.
T Lynam

Front up could be a combination of what Onno put

tyres will probably be more like 145/80/13 depending on those chrome wheels

as always I'd strong recommend you get the Driver's Handbook as it's full of useful information on owning and running and full details of the necessary full servicing and schedule - (Ref: 0058) - http://www.mgocshop.co.uk/catalog/Online_Catalogue_Handbooks_5.html

Driver's Handbook for prevention, workshop manuals for repairs

once you've got the Driver's Handbook I'd suggest you check or do as required from a full 36k mile service plus a few other bits

ETA: links for tyre/wheel size calculator - http://www.kouki.co.uk/utilities/visual-tyre-size-calculator

and info about tyres and age - http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible.html
Nigel Atkins

I doubt the tyres are that low a profile as it's difficult to get much less than a 65 profile on a wire wheel that needs a tube. I think the photo just makes them look low.

I half agree with Onno. The front looks high because the back is low but in reality I think the back is where it wants to be and the front would benefit from being lowered.
Daniel Thirteen-Twelve

should be lower rather than lowered I think

the black of the tyres on the bright wheels can give deceptive proportions but I think they look low profile too i.e. (well) below 80 (% approx)

usual to see bright red with chrome wire wheels but less usual to see wire wheels on r/b cars

(hi Daniel)
Nigel Atkins

Thanks for all the comments, I will post the tyre sizes tomorrow, to see if that narrows things down a bit.
T Lynam

well done Tim facts always better than speculation

check out the link to see if you can also identify the age of each tyre, can be interesting
Nigel Atkins

Tim

Nice looking car.

I wouldn't have said that the back was particularly low. The front does look high, though.

It would be useful to see a full side-on shot to get a better idea of the stance.
Dave O'Neill2

hood might need a bit of up and down use to stretch it out perhaps :)
Nigel Atkins

Nice car

Yeah its definatly the tires... I have the 145 / 13 and it looks exactly like that...but im not buying new tiress till these are worn out
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Tim,
I see it is a "previously restored car" Are you sure that the front wings are the correct 1500 ones?

When they introduced the 1500 model and raised the ride height, the depth of the wing over the wheel was increased to lower the curve of the wheel arch. Is there any possibility that the PO used wings from an earlier model? That would make the arches would look high over the top of the wheels, like yours.
Guy

Good to hear someone else has a similar issue, I do not fancy changing springs if there is no need as they look in very good condition and could be new, as for the wrong wings it could be, but if that's the case they are staying!

As for the tyres, they are Hankook 145/70/13 tyres all round and for the amount of miles I expect to do they will probably out last me.

As for the hood, it does seem very stiff, hopefully it will fit a bit better once its had some use.

Feedback is very much appreciated.

Thanks
Tim
T Lynam

Tim,
If you are not wanting to spend on it or change the tyres as they are nearly new a couple of simple cheap options that may help:

Spray under the wheel arch with black paint (or underseal) It will emphasise the space showing around the front wheels much less and looks smart enough.

The front can be lowered by an inch or so by using 1/2" spacers between the spring pan and the bottom wishbones. Easy to fit, using proper strength longer bolts and spacers. Lowering the front will also give a slight negative camber.
Guy

Thanks Guy, a couple of options that sound well worth considering.
T Lynam

145/70 is a bit low profile because you get 70% of the tyre width in height.
So a smaller width tyre needs a higher ratio to get the same amount of side wall.

Guy made a good point about the wings
You can check this very easy with a piece of string.
Fix the string at the side of the rear light exactly between the orange and red bit.
The tension it over the side of the car and fix it at the front at the side of the headlamp exactly centered.
For a 1500 the string should now be well above the wheelarch.
If it is 1/4 to1/2 of an inch above the you mostlikely have early wings
Onno K

I'm sure its almost definitely a combination of wrong tyres and wrong wing.
I have the same problem with my tyres on wires and I'm changing them as soon as I have any spare loot. I've already lowered mine and it still has too big a gap between tyre and arch for my liking.

If your wings are 1275 or earlier and are good, you may be able to swap them with someone or do an ebay deal and make a little bit (though probably not enough to cover a repaint)as I believe 1500 wings are a little more plentiful.

The chap with the monster brg Ashley roofed supercharged K conversion (Eddie?) has 1500 wings on it but really needs the earlier ones for clearance issues. He might be interested?
Matt1275Bucks

Have you checked the tracking? If it has a lot too much toe in it will make the front rise as you drive forward and also make the steering feel light. Too much toe out gives the exact opposite effect. Bad tracking may be the reason for the new looking tyres, or if it's only just been restored, the tracking could be wrong but the tyre wear may not yet be showing.

Bernie.
b higginson

No not checked the tracking yet, but I have tried the string test and attached the photo.

The string is 45mm or just over 1 & 3/4 inch above the wheel arch, so probably the first step will be looking at how to lower the suspension, as for changing tyres, wings and getting resprayed I think that will have to wait for another day.

Maybe this side on picture shows better how bad or not the problem is?

T Lynam

Tim,
as for the tyres they shouldn't out last you because tryes are about more than just tread depth and 145/70 is smaller than the standard 145/80 so might effect speedo - see those links

also with more regular driving the car will go and feel better and be more reliable and you'll learn to drive it more to it's potential

if it's the hood frame that's stiff then a bit of light oil on all the hinge points and use should ease it up
Nigel Atkins

Looks like the correct wing then! Sorry for the red herring, but just as well to be sure!

Your 145 X 70 tyres will be something around 18mm less radius than the standard (82%X145 - 70%X 145) so that is really where the problem lies. Lowering and painting inside the wheel arch will help, but they are always going to look small. Even the correct sized tyre/ wheel combination looks small by modern standards when one expects the wheel to fill almost all of the wheel arch. When these cars were designed, that just wasn't "the look"
Guy

No problem regarding a red herring, at least I know where the problem lies.

Thanks Nigel for the tip regarding the hood, I will give it a go.
T Lynam

Tim,
sorry I missed your last but one post as I was still typing whilst you posted (happens a lot to me)

I think the black of the tyres on the bright wheels has given deceptive looking proportions

in your latest photo it obviously depends on the ground where the car is parked being level but looking at a photo of the 1500 when it was new shows that your front wheel arch clearance may be around correct

the rear appears to be a little down compared to the photo of when new

if the front is up a little on your car then if the car is on level ground the rear will be down a little

as Onno has put the only way to check is to measure on level ground the wheel arch clearance from centre of wheel to bottom of arch (allowing for the difference in tyres)

there are always small differences in measurements even from one side of car to other

I think as we’re so use to seeing Spridgets with suspensions that have settled and aged and are now also used to seeing modern cars with filled arches we forget just how high our cars used to sit when new

just using the car could help the suspension to settle

I always say don’t do any cosmetic changes until you’re regularly driven the car for a year as you might need the money for other items on the car

Guy’s slightly overstated the difference between your tyre size and standard as he’s forgot to allow for the sidewall, tyre being flat at the bottom and I’ve found different makes and models of tyres aren’t exactly strict with the size variances

I also say that most service work is mainly cleaning and lubricating so if it has a hinge a drop of lubrication usually works

if the hood is still stiff after lubing and using there are a few other minor adjustments that can be made but not until regular use has taken the newness out of it

just using the car will sort out a lot of the wrinkles and you’ll enjoy the car even more
Nigel Atkins

Overstated the difference? Not sure about that.

Tyre being "flat at the bottom" is irrelevant as regards the wheel filling the arch, although it could have a bearing on the ground clearance. Where I may be awry is in calculating the difference from standard using 82% aspect, rather than 80%. I understood that originally all tyres had a standard aspect ratio of 82%, although this may have related to the old days of cross-plys. When different profile tyres were introduced if there was no figure given, then it was assumed to be 82%.

Other than that, it is just a maths calculation,to work out the different radius of the tyre +wheel sizes. Although I do agree that tyres of the same quoted size from different manufacturers do also vary in reality. And of course a new tyre is bigger than a well worn one too! Well, a bit anyway!
Guy

Rear looks spot on (although somewhat un 1500 like) - I would measure the height of the bottom of the sill to the road and lower the front so that it is parallel or slightly nose down. You can space the front spring pan to lower the car with longer bolts and steel washers - 1/4" spacer lowers 1" IIRC

JB
James Bilsland

thought that ratio was 1:2 james, 1/2" lowers it 1"
David Smith

I’m no tech drawing type or artist or photographer and my eyes aren’t the best but comparing Tim’s latest photo with what I take to be a photo of a 1500 when it was new (and with wire wheels) Tim’s car appears to be sitting lower at the rear

in the photo of the 1500 when new the gap between the bottom of the wheel arch and the top of the tyre is around 1½” and about 4” at the front – now that car may have need to settle too

in Tim’s second photo the whole shot seems to have a tilt to the bottom right

if the back being down puts the front up a bit and makes it look higher

as I put before the car may need to settle a bit before deciding if and what to do and we’ve all got used to more filled wheel arches and less ground clearance which I can tell you from personal bitter experience isn’t always a good thing

Guy,
we'll not argue over our small differences :)
Nigel Atkins

sorry typos again

I meant -

if the back of Tim's car is down a bit then that puts the front up a bit and makes the front look higher
Nigel Atkins

I have to agree that the read is the problem.
It is to low for a normal 1500.
Combine that to the lowish profile tyres and this look os the result.

I'd lower the front but with lower springs (stiffer) not washers.
And fit 155/80 tyres
Then it will look supurb
Onno K

Here's a photo of a 1500 that I owned a few years back.

It had just had new rear springs fitted.

Dave O'Neill2

Dave's car there show the rear as new because of the new rear springs

now the front although it may still look high to some is possibly not as high as it would have been if it also had new front springs

as it is it appears nose up

you can easily lay your hand between tyre and wheel arch at the rear and your upright fist at the front

and that's with 80(?) aspect tyres

pity there isn't a bank of photos of the cars when they were new from different angles

the youngsters would think they were being held up by skyhooks (er, if they still have skyhooks)
Nigel Atkins

Hi Tim,

My car started life as a 1500. It now has Frontline suspension front and rear lowered 1" running Yokahma 185/60 x 14 tyres but it retains the 1500 wings. You can see from the photo how the extra depth of these front wings shows up. The inside lip of the wings has been rolled so as to ensure clearance from the tyres.

I have thought that that your car, considering that it has 1500 bumpers, also has 1500 wings and would benefit from the front being lowered.


Eddie.

Eddie Brown

That photo of Dave's car also shows the effect of having the wheel wells painted in black - although the car is high(ish) the black behind the black tyres helps to lessen the effect.
Guy

I know i might sound stupid but il say it anyway could it be that they havent completly compressed under its weight yet and got used to it if they are new.
Only Mark Evans with his An MG is born seemed to have a similar problem at the back with it riding higher than it should not sure what the conclution was to that.
D Sartain

David

I think you are correct

Nigel

Tim's car is lower on the rear than a normal 1500 - but as we all know 1500s generally sit too high (because the USA safe rubber bumper has to hit the pedestrian at the right part of the leg) making them roll and pitch like mad... lowering the front will make it look and handle a bit more like an earlier car without upsetting the ride.

JB

James B

JB,
I'm put earlier that Tim should leave things to settle

if the back is too low then it needs to be found why that is before lowering the front

if Tim's not going to use the car much (I hope he changes his mind) then it doesn't matter that it keeps at standard 1500 ride height

Guy,
I didn't even notice the black under the arches as that's what I expect to see on a road car but I always notice when it's body paint :)
Nigel Atkins

One thing I've just noticed is that Tim's car only has one jacking point - at least on the offside - whereas 1500s had two.
Dave O'Neill2

I'm surprised at you Dave, early 1500s had one jacking point per side
Nigel Atkins

First two months of production, apparently.
It would be interesting to know the chassis number or build date.
Dave O'Neill2

There is only one jacking point on both sides of the car, the Chassis No is listed on the Registration Document as GAN6-154748G, I assume that more details can be gained from that?

The car has only done a couple of hundred miles in the last few years, so I am hoping there may be time for the springs to wear in and lower themselves, but no doubt it will mean lowering the suspension and new tyres to sort the problem.
T Lynam

It certainly is an early one.

The first 1500 in November '74 was 154101.

The first car built in January '75 was 156670, according to Horler.
Dave O'Neill2

That sounds correct, the car was first registered 01/02/1975.
Tim Lynam

>>The car has only done a couple of hundred miles in the last few years<<

Tim unless you're only going to go to an annual show or two and the MoT I'd suggest building the journeys and trips up gradually and get the Handbook and going through a 36k-mile service check list at least

some use on the road is a lot better for the car that always being kept in the garage
Nigel Atkins

Nigel,

Once the last few jobs are done the car will be driven on the road pretty frequently through the summer, but as you say, building the journeys up slowly as there may be one or two hidden problems lurking due to it being in someone's garage for the past 4 years unused.

But thanks to everyone's input, I am now more aware of the cars history and what to do to improve it's appearance.
Tim Lynam

dare I suggest you put black waxoyl or underseal on the wheel arches and under the car - well I dare suggest it but I bet you don't

Tim your car enjoy it as you like but bear in mind if you use it fairly frequently over summer and then store it for winter next summer part of the loosening up process starts all over again

and in early spring, late autumn and all winter you can get many better driving days/times than summer

that's me zipped up now

enjoy your car, get the Driver's Handbook, check/do that 36k service, drive the car and have a lot of fun

ask here if you have questions - many times I keep quiet on subjects :)
Nigel Atkins

I mentioned finishing the inner wheel arches black yesterday and I was told by a friend that most MG's inner wheel arches are kept the same colour as the bodies?

I have no idea how true that is, as I only just bought the Midget and have no previous experience with them, I thought this would be a good idea to help hide the "small tyres", is there any standard generally kept too?

Tim Lynam

Almost certainly they were finished in bare red paint. The ones that were never undersealed from new, a lot of them, then rusted heavily.

If you intend driving the car, then protecting the inside of the wheel arches is a very good idea.

If you want to look at a nice clean red surface inside the wheel arches, then either you won't be driving it much, or you will be washing the insides of the wheel arches a lot.

Better to underseal, if you want them red, spray them red afterwards.
Lawrence Slater

I only suggested painting or undersealing under the front wheel arches as being a cheap and cost-effective way to reduce the apparent impact of the small(ish) wheels. They are made more obvious by seeing the red paint under there. It wasn't meant to be anything to do with originality - or otherwise!
Guy

The suggestion was a very good one, the obvious ideas to some would not have been obvious to me, so I was grateful of the idea, I just wondered if the norm is to finish all wheel arches in black, if it was it would have made the decision even easier.
Tim Lynam

This thread was discussed between 18/01/2012 and 22/01/2012

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