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MG Midget and Sprite General - Insurance report on my wreck

I heard back from Haggarty today on my wrecked '72 Midget
I had an agreed value of $12,500
The repairs totaled $8350, however the estimator reported that there was probably more hidden damage, so Haggarty is declaring the car a total loss.
The highest salvage bid was $1750. Haggarty will give me the $12,500, or the car and $10,750.
I estimate the damage in parts, paint, and my free labor at $4500-$6000
The downside is that the under Florida law, the title will read Salvage/ Reconstructed.
They will continue my coverage and will let me re insure after inspection. Probably at a lower value.

How much will this mark on the title devalue the car?

My car's specs; Rust free RWA Colorado car
+.20 Hi Comp. pistons, Vanderval bearings, ARP fasteners, Ported head, custom exhaust. Fast road cam
Anti sway bar, recently rebuilt/polybushed front and rear suspension
Newly carpeted, brand new covers on older Miata seats w/ speakers, New Sumitomo tires
Datsun 5 speed, brand new Misubishi alternator etc. etc.


Phil Burke

I don't know how much that will devalue the car but I think should you ever need to sell it, it might make the car harder to sell and at a lower value. Personally I think I'd give such a car a pass if I was looking for one if it was branded as salvage/rebuilt.

For the full value, I think if you look around, you can probably find a very nice Midget for that money, maybe less, problem is it would be an unknown car and who knows what actual shape it would be in? Mechanical rapairs down the road?

If you are absolutely certain of your rebuilding/body work skills and of any possible hidden damage and you are really attached to the car emotionally, then it's worth taking a chance on. However, be prepared to have to abandon it if you find severe damage not anticipated and save the good parts you can for the next one.
Clive Reddin

Phil,

You were never really ever going to sell your car anyway, so why worry about the title?

The picture made me wince, but when I could look again, it's really not all that badly damaged.

Go for it. Use the extra cash to pay off your school loans or buy another project. Maybe a bugeye this time.

Have a very happy holiday season!

Lee
Lee Fox

Lee are you going to be around this weekend

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

What about buy it back just for the parts. For the $10750 left but a nice replacement with at least a good body. Put your good engine, gearbox and bits in the new car. Sell unwanted parts from new car i.e engine and gearbox to recover some of the cost. With less than $10k spent you could end up with a nice car without the need to stuff around fixing yours. Your old car could then be used for parts as needed to keep the new one going. If you don't want a wrecked car hanging about the house strip it and just keep the parts. How's that for an idea? A couple of assumptions, you can find a nice replacement for about $10k and you're not emotionally attached to it.
Greg H

With Greg on this one.
In parts the wreck is worth at least that much.
Buy an other car with clean title and rebuild it in that shell.
In the end you can sell all double parts and might even walk away with some cash (depending what you do yourself)
Onno K

I don't know how this works in your country, but in the UK on the 2 occasions that I have dealt with insurance companies over buying back a total write-off car I have refused their first offer and immediately got a better deal.
Although they have claimed that their best salvage offer is $1750 you should be able to get a discount on that figure. Depending on where the car is the company would still have to pay out for auction fees, taxes, administration in changing the title and possibly collection and delivery charges, - all out of that $1750 price. On the other hand if they simply allow you to retain title and you keep the car (or collect it from wherever it is) they minimise their costs, possibly saving several hundred dollars from which you might get some share.
Guy

Agree with Greg and Onno.

It would be a shame not to rebuild it, but it makes more sense to buy another car and swap the parts over.
Dave O'Neill2

If you never intend to sell it, who cares about buyers opinions.

Besides, there is nothing to stop you repairing it, and getting an independant engineers report to say it's up to par is there?

If you are able to do the work yourself, then the repair bill is parts only, and not labour. Way less.

On the other hand, if you can find a decent rust free shell, you can build it with your own good parts, sell what you don't need, and make a profit in the end.

One thing, from what I read of your history with this car, if you take the money, and look for another car, you'll probably not find one (in your own mind at least), as good as this one was, and hence will always feel cheated and dissapointed with the outcome. I've been there before.

This is an economical write off, and an insurance companies opinion. Go with yout gut.
Lawrence Slater

After my race car was tolled and in effect written off, I had the same dilemma. I'd had that car since I was 19 (25 years of ownership at that time) and had done loads of stuff with it and had several "race" related bumps etc of those years. I'd taken it all round Europe and raced at some of the best circuits there are.

We could have straightened it out with a lot of time and patience and I could have kept that history but at the end of the day it made far more sense (and where Motors are concerned sense never normally prevails with me) to replace the car with another one and save the bits that we could from the damaged one.

We bought another race car and took the best bits from both vehicles and combined them to make a sum total greater than the two individual parts (as the saying goes).

I insisted that we repainted the car the same colour as the wrecked one and through that and the continuing use of some of the components the old car lives on... it's just had a major facelift that's all :-)

The unseen benefit is that the old car is still in use as the training vehicle at Snetterton and the bits that we didn't use from both cars are now being built into the Junior team car for my lads to use when they are old enough. In effect, I've got a much better race car for myself and enough bits to build another car to boot.

I'd be another one that falls into the replacement car and swap bits camp!

Andrew McGee

Guess I'm going to come down in that camp as well, and also back the idea to see what their "best price" is, as I did that with a couple of cars and got a few hundred knocked off - which always comes in handy for parts ;)

Heck - I've even been driving a 1275 whilst Primerose is having major surgery that I'm not sure she's ever going to recover from - so, at least you've not got THAT embarrassment to consider :P!!! :)

Merry Christmas - and it's so good that you're here to celebrate it and it wasn't worse
rachmacb

don't believe anyone can make a decision until the car is stripped down and the damage under the skin examined in detail. If as suspected it's minimal in the frame then rebuild.
David Smith

all good advice

haggle with the insurance for reasons given

and you wont know how bad the car really is until you have it stripped right down then you can decide whether it would be better to buy another car and one better out of the two

keep all the money for the project until the very end as the expenses soon start to add up and you have to allow for additional expenses same as the insurance have judged there could be literally hidden costs
Nigel Atkins

Buying a replacement might also be worth considering even if yours turns out to be repairable. If you were to find a cheap project car of the same age with a clean title then there might be some parts that you could use for your rebuild, like the front wings, bonnet, radiator and, ahmm, VIN plate.

That way you keep all the good stuff from your car, known condition, rust free shell etc, have a clean title to the car with no adverse records against it, have some spares for the rebuild and a load of other spares in store for the future
Guy

Haggle, buy it back,strip it, make careful measurements as to the straightness of the shell. Then, and only then,make a decision to repair or get a new project. Either way you will end up with a good car, peace of mind and some money. Bernie.
b higginson

"however the estimator reported that there was probably more hidden damage,"

That's just an empty statement, designed to cover his rear end. Is the estimator a spridget expert?

What kind of equipment, other than eyes, were used to announce, "there was probably more hidden damage"?

I definitely see where Andrew is coming from. But I'm loath to get rid of things I've had for a long time, if I know they can be repaired. If they can't be repaired, that's ok, as long as that is CERTAIN, and NOT, some chaps best guess.

And there is another angle to this. Well at least for me there would be. As I understand this, the accident was self inflicted, by a momentary time out of mind. I'd be bloody annoyed with myself, but at the same time feel better, than if somebody had done it to me.

Hence if I had to dip into my pockets to stump up the extra dollars to put it right?. Well let that be a lesson to me.:)

I'd pay the price and put it back on the road, coz I'm that bloody minded. :)
Lawrence Slater

I think that statement from the estimator - "there may be more hidden damage" - is actually playing into your hands. They originally said that it would be totalled if repair costs were above $9300. They now calculate the repair costs at $8350; $1000 below the "not repairable" value. The note about possible further damage is in order that their records show the justification for totalling the wreck, rather than repairing it. It may well just be an excuse. Either because they don't want to risk getting involved, or because the estimator has picked up that you may be interested in buying it back for a DIY repair, and he thinks this is doing you a favour.

I don't know how your state law on salvage works, but logically if the repair estimate is below the economical repair value it should be repaired, not recorded as salvage. Who repairs it (you or the insurer) is irrelevant, it should be a repaired car, not reconstructed from a salvaged write-off.

Put another way, the car has a recorded insurance valuation of $12,500 and they estimate it will cost $8,350 to repair. That leaves quite a margin for "hidden damage" !

Guy

Guy, I had a "write off" a long way back (one of a few actually), and seem to remember the insurance co' agreeing to say the car was an economical write off, not a mechanical write off. Hence no issue of it not being roadworthy if repaired.

Wasn't there a discussion about the different classes of write off here recently?

And isn't it likely to be a similar picture in the States?
Lawrence Slater

"the car has a recorded insurance valuation of $12,500"

Sorry, must have missed something here. An MG Midget
of ANY year with a value of $12,500??? R U Kidding??

Yeah, I can understand a hopped-up 1275, Datsun
tranny, and fancy paintwork. Maybe $6k???

But twelve-five??? No way.

You can have my 72 with hot 1275 and datsun 5-speed
for 10k any day of the week. I have certainly not
go more than 2500 in it all told!
chuckc

With the value of real good cars here at a very low point (all time low in some areas) I feel that Phil is getting a great deal.

If it were me I'd take as much cash as they would give me and get the car back.
It's one hell of a parts car at the very very least.

Then start looking for a rust free shell that you can move all your parts into.

If you are lucky you will find one already stripped down so you just have to sand everything down, prime and paint then move all your good bits over.

I got a rust free 74 Midget shell from a guy in S. California for $100. I paid an extra $60 for the doors (good glass) and a few other bits.

I lucked out that my friend BillM was about to be driving past from San Diego back to Seattle with an empty trailer.

I'm definitely with whoever said to keep all the money in a safe place for all the stuff you might want to do, like a real nice paint job...

Or repair it and keep it and the money you will no doubt have left over and be ready well in advance of our next big US Spridget get together!!
Rick Bastedo

Agree with Guy that the adjuster was making you a gift.
Also/alternatively, if he hasn't been doing this for a long time, he has no experience of simple and solid cars, which can easily be evaluated and fixed. Modern ones are very different - a deer jumped out in front of my Mazda a couple weeks ago, apparently very minor damage to the RF corner - light, fender, hood corner. But, I keep finding broken and bent bits of tin foil and plastic underneath everything. "Our" cars don't have such.

I have fixed Spridgets and B's with the same damage you have. The worst part is straightening the scuttle where the fender hit it, because you need a good helper so one of you can work from inside while the other is outside. IF the scuttle is pushed back any, it can be jacked out easily - because there is actually something strong enough to jack against. Worst case you may have to straighten and re-skin the door post; everything else will be bolt off-on. Wish you were closer, I'd guarantee to fix it for less than the quote! Maybe I need a winter vacation, long about Speedweeks.

On the recon title, agree that if you want to keep the car it doesn't matter at all. If you want to sell someday, a good photo record of what was done and how should allay fears of any sensible buyer, idiots are another story. Remember that you will likely be selling to an enthusiast, not a random consumer.

Part of the title problem is that the Feds and the insurance companies have gotten into this as "consumer protection", which is more a scam to sell cars, make insurers rich, and get points for politicians. It is very easy to "total" a car by just kicking it in a few places, with no real functional damage to the car. I have another Mazda that is "recon", apparently because both rear quarters were kicked in - been a helluva car for the last 6 years.

FRM
FR Millmore

Phil. You should now have sufficient input to allow you to do the research necessary for your decision.

The salvage/restoration issue is quite real. It definitely lowers the value of the vehicle, both when you try to insure it again and when it is sold. And, at some point it will be sold even if not by yourself. You need to talk with a supervisor at your local vehicle titling/licensing authority about whether your state does salvage/restoration titles and, if they do, what is the process of reregistering the vehicle after repair. In many cases, an inspection, performed by someone who will have no understanding of LBCs will be performing the inspection to determine if your vehicle will be allowed back on the road again--ever. I went through this process myself some years back and it was both time consuming and expensive.

Thus, if there is any mechanism that allows you to keep the current vehicle title, it would be to your advantage to do so.

If it is possible to get the insurance company to declare the vehicle not economically repairable and simply allow you to keep it, along with the cash settlement, that would be the ideal. I agree that you would be wise to set up a bank account, put the money there, and make your final decision after you have torn down the vehicle and have been able to properly inspect it to determine the full extent of the damage. At that point, you can decide whether to repair the existing vehicle, purchase another vehicle, or shell, and use the money towards building the ideal vehicle for yourself. Often, when we are finished with a vehicle, we see things we have learned and said, "I wish I had done that differently or had done something else". Now, you have that opportunity, plus the skills you have developed working with the current car, to build something even better than you had before the accident.

Good luck. Les
Les Bengtson

I have pretty much decided to keep my car, and take the 10,750.
The $12,500. is obviously way more than I could have gotten for the car, however that was the value agreed to by me and Haggarty, so they based the annual premium on that amount. Everyone should have their car insured to an agreed value, NOT blue (or any other color) book.

I am looking at a RWA 1974 with a clean title, that has no running gear. I do not want to strip mine and reinstall in another shell, too time and $ consuming. I will redo the front body work with parts from the '74.I'll straiten the frame if necessary, I'm pretty sure it's not bent, and repaint. I'll come out ahead, and maybe have have a '74 when I'm done.
Phil Burke

Sounds like a good plan Phil. You might have been able to negotiate buying it back for a bit less, but overall it is not a bad deal, especially considering it was your fault anyway!
Guy

Bravo Phil.

You know it makes sense,- because it's what you want. :)

Lawrence Slater

a point that I deleted in my last post as I couldn't remember as I wasn't sure if the accident was your fault or others

over here if the accident was fully your fault then you'd want to put some of the money towards your increased insurance costs for the next 3-5 years on any policies with your name on
Nigel Atkins

Phil.. I would consider taking the repair cost and do it your self. That way the title will remin clean.
darnoc31

And just cough up a couple of thousend dollar?? Then why insure at an agreed value in the first place!

I'd make the other shell with the clean title in order and then bolt the good mechanicals on.
The crashed shell will rust easyer now it has had a ding so to make it as good as it was it needs a full respray.

With the other body you will be able to make sure it is rustfree and perfect easier.
You will end up with a clean title.
And the best parts of your old car
Onno K

Onno,
Obviously it depends on the relative condition of the two bodies. But Phil's car was in exceptional rust-free condition before the ding, so I would probably favour retaining that shell if at all possible (i.e.if not structurally too bent). Most of the known rust points seem to have been clear away from the areas of crash damage.
The donor car could provide the necessary replacement panels and be a source of future spares. And it might also donate its identity if the insurance company do insist on recording Phil's car as salvage/reconstructed
Guy

>>And it might also donate its identity if the insurance company do insist on recording Phil's car as salvage/reconstructed<<

is that allowed then(?)
Nigel Atkins

>>And it might also donate its identity if the insurance company do insist on recording Phil's car as salvage/reconstructed<<

>>>>is that allowed then(?)<<<<

You have to be very very careful about that.
How much of the shell is needed for it to be considered the one car and not the other.
Some people simply remove the id tags from one and rivet them to the other. Then the title of the donor becomes the title of the don-ee... and vice-versa.

If you are planning on showing your car at Amelia Island this is a big no-no. Apparently there are ways to discover if this has been done, a big show was shut down a couple years ago while investigations were made.
This is really only super important when a lot of money is involved. Those cars were all of significant value, our cars might never be in that category.

If we are talking about having a good solid car with a clear title then making one car out of two seems like it should be ok - especially if you own both cars and you are mixing and matching parts anyway.

I know this subject is a bit taboo, I also know that this is done and more often than most people would like to imagine. This is reality, deal with it.

I have a clean and rust free 74 Midget shell.
As far as I know it wasn't a stolen car or anything like that. Maybe I can run the VIN through carfax to see some history. I plan to build a nice solid Midget from it using spare parts I already have, those donated to the project by friends and last resort - parts I will have to buy. I will do all this with my son Peter, we will build this car and paint it and drive it. He will be 14 soon, so I'd like to have it done by the time he turns 16.



Rick Bastedo

Phil,

Id definatly change over the vin # esp if your going to take a hit on the value....it may not be right, but we dont make the rules...we just have to live by them, and do the best we can with what we have

In missouri you wouldnt have to change the vin on the engine ... Just on the dash... And its just 2 rivits... Easy enough when you change out the front clip....and file the paper work of the new midget

Its a no brainer...its not like your stealling a car or trying to get the upper hand on a suspecting buyer


The question is... Can you look god in the face on judgment day for not loosing value on your car

Besides that... Will people really car what is on the title if they want the car they will buy it... If they dont trust it... Tell them to keep walking in the pointed direction of the dirty finger


Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

My comments where based on legaly getting a clean title with a nice car.

In my experiance anny good ding (as this was) will leave you finding strange rust spots in a few years.
This is because the impact can create cracks (hairline or hidden) that allow water ingress even on places not directly related to the crash.

A full respray and waxoil treatment would achieve the same but still leave you with a crash title.

And to get a shell as good as yours was (or as you said) won't come near the 10k you get and so will leave you plenty to spare.

6000 will buy you a lot of welding and a high quality respray.
Then you 4000 left to buy the donor a grill lights radiator and a bumper ( the only parts not useable from the old car)
Onno K

Well, here's what I'd do. I would get the other Midget as you're going to need parts anyway. Strip down the wreck and see if it can be rebuilt. If it can then have at it! If not transfer all the good parts to the new car and register that one, salvage what's left and scrap what's scrap. You can always cut the left over car, which ever one it is and make a matching trailer. The sale of unwanted duplicate parts can put some extra $$$ in your pocket.

Either way, only you cn make the choice as to what to do because it's your car.

Sorry you have to be in that position to begin with.
Clive Reddin

I like the matching trailer idea. very unique I reckon.
Lawrence Slater

I have to say...ive seen photos of the midget trailer... And very nicely done... But im just not a fan. Im not sure why

But if it where me with a spare rear midget clip...id turn it into a BBQ grill...now that would be cool home decorum...

In fact a midget trailer BBQ grill would be very cool...that would score some points at the next car show....maybe even build in a wet bar with a cold beer and soda pop dispenser

Sort of a portable midget rolling out door kitchen
...now id be a big fan of that idea

Prop
Prop and the Blackhole Midget

Prop
I like your thinking!
Onno K

This thread was discussed between 23/12/2011 and 25/12/2011

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