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MG Midget and Sprite General - indy racecars turn into airplanes RIP Dan Whealdon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbQhjcmTS6Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player

IM NOt sure they finished the race, but what a crash... Luckly i missed it do to tolit needs, I saw them take dan wheldon in the chopper but, i turned the channel and never saw what happened next...sad day for racing, but dan was an ambassador to the sport, no doulbt his death will bring renewed intrest to indy racing... I sure thats what he would have wanted for the sport if he had to make the sacrafice that he made....I hope indys popularity rises as a rest so cause i cant stand watching nascrap.

Hard not to find some sick humor of Alex Lloyd ... "Ill take 2 BBQed alex hot dogs" hahaha... Buts its proof how great safty fire suits has come for him to sit there on fire that long, with appearnt no burns

200 yards flying... Thats messed up

Prop
Prop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRhCBGuGiCM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Check out the 3:40 mark of this vid. Now thats something hollywood cant recreate... " hello honey, no supper for me tonight ... Im Stuffed, i had "TIRE" for lunch today at the office
"

Prop
Prop

That was absolutely horrendous. Poor Dan. A great driver. A great loss. My thought are with his loved ones.

Bernie.
b higginson

Bernie,

Well said. Thank you.

Ray
Ray Rowsell

I've just been listening to The Jeremy Vine programme on BBC Radio 2, which for those not familiar with it, is a lunchtime News/magazine show. There was a half hour spot on it discussing the dreadful crash which killed Dan and generally explaining the nature of Indycar racing for the uninitiated, during which there were some fine tributes to Dan from people like Johnny Mowlem and Mark Blundell and various others who new Dan when he was younger. What staggered everyone, me included, was the violence of the accident. According to Johnny Mowlem, Dan's car turned in the air and hit the wall cockpit first giving him no chance of survival and he never regained consciousness. However, miraculously,(unconfirmed) there were no other serious injuries to other drivers.
Shame that it takes a tragedy like this for motor racing to get on a main stream radio or TV show, but, 'twas ever thus.
I feel very sad today.

Bernie.


b higginson

I've not looked at the footage of the crash. It seems the older I get, the less inclined I am to whitnessing nastyness, be it footage of fatalities, horror films or TV violence.
RIP Dan Wheldon.
Gary & Gaps

This is where the real pessimist in me comes alive....there doing an uptopsy... I mean really, seriously !!!

Im not a trained professional medic, but im guessing the cause of death was a crash at 220 miles an hour going airbourn for 300 meters plus and then smashing into a wall cockpit 1st with his head full exposed to the impact... Granted thats just my un trained opinion as to the cause of death.... But hey, i realise im an idiot from time to time so his death may very well have been the result of high colestral or a drug over dose of asprine

This crap just kills me, its the very 1st sign that absolutlu no common scence will be allowed in this after math... I just cant wait for the new safer regulation

Unreal.

Prop
Prop

You gotta have balls to drive in a race like that.

Loads of admiration for those that do.
Lawrence Slater

Prop, the race car driver died a violent death and I think it's mandatory for an autopsy in such cases even if it was an auto crash.

I'm sure there's a number of injuries that could cause his death but from it, maybe something will be learned.

Look at NASCAR. Most of the driver's refused to take advantage of the Hanns device that attached to the helmet. Heck, Dale Earnhardt still ran with an open face helmet, one of the few drivers who still did and not that it made any difference in his crash. He didn't use the Hanns device and a crash he should have walked away from killed him. If he had used it, he would have and now look, everyone runs with the Hanns device. It took his death to get other driver's attention.

Stock cars got faster and often became airborne in crashes. Now thay have spoilers that deploy to break up the airflow over the car to help keep them on the ground and they use restrictor plates to slow them down on the super speedways. On those tracks, everyone waits for "the big one" because the cars run in such tight groups. Believe me, some people do go just to see the crashes and hopefully no one gets killed. No sport is worth getting killed in.

Over the years, a lot of safety and rule changes have come into effect to protect the drivers and fans from injury. It's a shame and a tragedy that sometimes someone has to die before common sense takes over.

A race car driver knows it's a risky sport and no one thinks they will die during it but thank goodness it's not a common occurrence.

In this case, a woman loses her husband and a young child her father. Their lives will never be the same anymore and that's the real tragedy here.
Clive Reddin

Sure was a tradegy for the family and a sad loss of a talented driver.

Indeed, it usually does take the death of someone in any sport to make it wake up to some of the more stupid aspects of lack of safety features - these don't have to take away the excitement or even the risk, but it does mean that there are no senseless deaths ....
rachmacb

Ironically, Dan Wheldon had been a major contributor to a new kind of Indycar design called the Delta where the wheels are more fared in and so less likely to touch another car's wheels and lead to the cars getting airborne. He had done most of the test work. The race at Las Vegas was to be the last with the old formula cars. I hope that his sacrifice will save lives in what must be the most dangerous of all motor sport with the very high speeds and close proximity of the cars.

Bernie.
b higginson

Prop, an autopsy is essential in not only determining the cause of death, but also from that trying to find ways to prevent such injuries in the future. From autopsy results doctors had seen brain stem injuries such as caused Dale Earnhart's death and had developed the Hans device which helps prevent such head movement. Perhaps they will find specific injuries sustained by Dan that will allow them to redesign the car or safety fence to prevent those in the future.
One thing I was taught when I was in the Navy working around aircraft, every safety device and rule was there because someone had died or been badly injured in the past to show them where the hazards were. Same with racing, so when you buckle up your seat belt or put on a helmet it's because someone else paid the price long ago.
B Young

I can see your point, and im not morally opposed to autopsys...to me its a common scence issue... Or the lack of, im just afraid we will see new laws and regs that just get in the way and take away from the sport

What i really love about open wheel racing, is it is real racing that requires extreme presion at high speeds

Once you put fenders on these cars then you got the boring smashem up derby cars of nascrap....aka, if there anythe way, just out in the wall and go yellow

I dont know... Its a tragady for sure, you hate to see it, esp a father of 2 small children... One of which is 7 months old... But knowing the details of this crash, there was no way your going to prevent that type of tragady unless you put a 50 mph hour racing cap and big anti crash nerf bars...and who wants to watch that

Its racing, sometimes tragadys happen...it just cant always be made safe..

I really fear we are just a few years away from the bannishment of the machine in favor of a injury / death free video game .

With each tragady we lose alittle more normalcy.

Prop
Prop

Rock and a hard place prop.

Nobody want's to die, and more and more we (human race) want to extend life, not just in racing but everywhere.

The more we do this the more we curtail freedoms. We can't have it all ways. Either we want risk and excitement (real risk and excitement), or we want safety.

Do we accept death, even premature death, or don't we?

Do we give up excitement and unhealthy life styles, of all kinds, and swap this for psuedo highs, or do we want the real thing?

You can't have the real thing without it's attendant dangers. If you banish the dangers, it's not the real thing.

So the rock kills you, and hard place bores you to death.



Lawrence Slater

Not that I have any right to comment, however I do enjoy my Motorsport and even more being involved in it at the sharp end behind the wheel. BUT you wouldn't get me behind that wheel unless I felt that the risks had been minimised to the least possible level. Yes I'm aware that freak accidents do occur but that is what the preparation of the cars is for.

Speaking from experience of being a spectator and seeing the aftermath of the accident that involved a good friend and destroyed my race Midget I'm extremely glad that it did what it needed to do.

Thankfully I saw Nev walk out of the ambulance, but if I'd have been shown the footage of the accident and seen the car before actually seeing him then I'd have been mildly (that's an understatement) crapping myself as to his wellbeing.

Watching the footage of the Las Vegas accident is scary and I'm not sure what could be done to minimise that risk at all. The law of physics simply took over and everyone in that pile up was just a passenger in my book.
It has been said that this maybe IndyCar's Senna moment (poor Roland always gets forgotten) and it took that to make them look inwardly and realise that they weren't immortal as it appeared the sport had become since the bads days of Peterson et all! Potentially a lot of good come out of the loss of Dan, I hope it is the case.

Having been lucky enough to go to Daytone to see the 500 and later on drive a Nascar at the Walt Disney Oval I can see why they aren't that concerned about close contact with all that agricultural tubing around the drivers. I imagine that Indycar will take the more sophisticated approach to Safety improvements and will retain a level of finesse that won't see the races turn into demolition derbies.

Personally I don't want Motorsport to be a Gladitorial spectacle and I hate seeing crashes in whatever form, close racing yes. Stupid racing not at all.

Just my thoughts.

RIP Dan!


Andrew McGee

Lawrence

As stated by Andrew formula 1 has hopefully found a way of protecting drivers whilst keeping the spectacle supreme. it had it's time at Monza with the death of Rattzenberger and Senna but that was in 1994. To date what 17 years later? the sport can rightly be proud of its safety record, and make no bones about it during that time there have been some horrendous accidents but the safety systems have done their jobs and the drivers have thanks goodness walked away.

Indy car is decades behind formula 1 in safety technology and hopefully Dan's death may put that right although somehow I doubt it. I noticed at least 2 cars in the accident caught fire!!! that is the very first thing that should be addressed!

I read a whole lot of comments by formula 1 drivers and officials, they were scathing of IRL even suggesting that some drivers were not up to standard for the event!

Formula 1 learnt a high priced lesson at Monza 94 please indy racing or whatever the name is do the same.
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

The comments from this side of the world were of a different nature..... not seen above.

There were (apparantly) big concerns that the track was too small for the ammount of cars racing in that event. Clearly from the footage I've seen, this appears to be the case....

Now, from our viewpoint, was the cause of death more down to greed... that of the race organisers to squeeze as many $$$$s out of the event as possible...? They are NOT free of guilt.

RIP Dan Wheldon.

Mark.
M T Boldry

As I said earlier nobody wants to die, and this was a very sad event for those left greaving.

I don't race, so don't have first hand experience to draw on.

But I wonder if at least "some" racers, do enter this kind of event with their eyes open.

That they truly do appreciate the fact that they can get seriously injured or killed, and yet in spite of this, or perhaps precisely because of the risks, are still more than eager to race in this fashion.

Should this be prevented?

I agree, it shouldn't be a gladiatorial spectator event(at least without the participants express willingness for it to be so), but if people want to race dangerously, knowingly, because that kind of excitement is what drives them, shouldn't they be allowed to?

Is there no place for the Indy 500, dangerous or not?

Maybe the answer to my question is in the following quote.


"Days like today is it worth it? Absolutely not," said Franchitti, who claimed the drivers crown for a third straight year when the finale was cancelled. "But we're race car drivers, it's what we do.

"We push each other, we push ourselves, we push our team to win these races and championships. It's what drives us forward. It's what we love.

"Then you see that happen to Dan and you know what, it doesn't matter."





Lawrence Slater

"but if people want to race dangerously, knowingly, because that kind of excitement is what drives them, shouldn't they be allowed to?"

Simply putting it... NO! (in my opinion that is!).

We race cars and we race cars close, hard, but I like to think fair.

We race at speeds which could indeed kill anyone of us if the worst case scenario occurred. So I want to be able to trust those around me on the circuit who I'm racing against.

Those that want to take on a Kamakazi approach to their driving standards aren't tolerated and the relevant word is given to them, more often than not by the MSA Officials, however it has been known that "quiet words" are spoken with those who take things a step too far.

As a race driver you get to know your competitors and their respective skill levels, you get to know who you can trust to overtake on the outside of the bend and who won't try to bury you in the gravel trap or embankments. There are those who will even try to knock you off whilst going down a straight (it happened to me once), however those are the ones who if you give them the same treatment back (gently of course) stay well clear of you in future.

It's all about trust and risk assessment and knowing those around you.

We don't run as close or as quick (obviously it's a Midget afterall!) as anything that Indycar do, even relatively we're never that quick bunched up at speed but that is where the risk is with Indycar. A driver can quickly become a victim of someone else's accident.

Yes it can happen in our race events also and that is a known element of entering a race, however we have to fix our own cars with our own money so that does tend to temper the rash decisions on track.

Those are my thoughts and mindset behind my racing, I'm well aware that I have a wife and two growing sons that want to see Dad climb out of the car at the end of a race in one unbroken piece. My eldest is currently building a race Midget for himself (with help from Dad), sure I imagine I'll be as nervous as hell when he's out there (unless we're racing in the same race) but there's no way I'll stop him from having a go (until he starts beating me if I'm still contributing to his race budget!!!!).

It's far safer getting the need for speed out of the system on the track than it is ever going to be on the roads.

Andrew
Andrew McGee

Monza? That was where the great Ronnie Peterson died in '78. Ayrton died at Imola in the San Marino G.P.

Bernie.
b higginson

As Andrew has said above hopefully this is Indycar's "Senna moment" and they will take steps to protect the drivers. As he says everyone forgets that Ratzenburger died the same weekend as Senna and with my ever cynical mind I can't help thinking that if Senna had not been killed then the huge leaps in driver safety in F1 would have taken longer to come about. F1 may well be the safest form of motorsport in terms of the lack of recent fatalities but it doesn't seem to have wholly trickled down the classes. I know one can't legislate against freak accidents such as that that killed John Surtees son a couple of years ago and inevitably there will always be some danger. I am however astonished that Inycar is so far behind and clearly they are not even using proper fuel cell tanks.
Matt1275Bucks

Right you are Bernie italian GP on the brain!
Imola as you state.
Bob Turbo Midget England

The testing DW had been doing was on the new Dallara Indycar which is likely to be called the DW-something in memory of him. The Delta project with its faired in wheels etc is something else, I've a sneaking suspicion it's got Lola behind it but wouldn't stake the mortgage on that.

What gets my goat is all the pious talking heads pontificating. Radio 5 Live was at it on Monday morning - once at 1:00am and once at 6:00am, neither presenter knew what they were talking about. One even got Dan's name wrong (as indeed has Prop but we kind of expect and forgive that...)

None of the hand-wringing commentators had heard of Dan Wheldon, Indycar or anything before Monday morning. They didn't pay him any attention when he won the 500 or the Championship, but are in there raking muck with barely concealed glee. More ratings in death than success I suppose but it makes me sick.

Indycar racing is a dangerous, glamorous, well-paid job. The drivers know exactly what the risks are, they would have it no other way. BUT - 14 (or whatever) other drivers were only superficially hurt, and there hasn't been a fatality since 2006. There was a chap who died just a month or so ago running in our local half marathon - I haven't heard the clamour for improved safety at jogging-fests.

A message to Jeremy Vine and those of his ilk - it's a dangerous old life, and we're doing the best we can to mitigate it, so get over it, it's our choice.

Oh and Andrew - when are you going to stop running on Mickey Mouse circuits ;-)

Max max-at-midgetmax-dot-com

Sorry but I feel compelled to respond to this thread, I normally try to avoid them.

As a Race Engineer you have another view on this...

A lot of the comments here seem somewhat flippant, at best

If you have just had a chat with or know the guy well just before the race it makes a difference.

Of course they know there is a risk, but when you are stood there with his wife and child and there is no response on the radio after the accident...

Don't pass it off as OK, it's NOT, getting paid a lot doesn't make it OK, wanting to be a racing car driver doesn't make it OK, of course they make a choice, we all do.

Just please think about what you say sometimes, anyone could read this, and to them it might matter

Sorry...





S Deakin

Max. Thanks for the correction on the Delta project. I ws re-itterating what I thought I heard Mark Blundell say on Jeremy Vine's programme. Maybe I miss- heard him or maybe he has his wires crossed, but either way I think the faired in wheels can't be a bad thing if it makes it a bit safer.
I agree with S. Deakin that a few insensitive comments have been made. Yes, life will go on,motor sport will carry on, but Dan Wheldon's relatives will never forget last weekend.

Bernie.
b higginson

Bernie, your comment serves to re-iterate why I am so irate about the attitude of radio "commentators". Half-heard truths or downright falsehoods are held up as true. If MB was misunderstood and JV passed on misinterpreted information, that's how false stories start. In this case it was just about a new design of racing car, but TBQH how much of the radio's sensationalised story can be trusted if a simple fact is capable of being understood wrongly.

It makes me furious when people who can't even get the victim's name right start trying to rake muck. The late night presenter on 5 Live was trying to goad Mark Blundell with comments about "Maximillian circuses", he just stopped short of speaking about spectators "baying for blood". (Mind you, if Pitpass.com is to be believed, that's exactly what was happening among the organising team but there again that could be media hype!)

What so annoyed me was the "terrible record" of Indycar being trotted out, when fewer people die racing than running but there's no demands to curb that sport!

SD, I agree on the human tragedy and that's probably why I was listening in the wee small hours of Sunday night. I never met DW, but I make my money in and around racing people and everyone is poleaxed.
Max max-at-midgetmax-dot-com

Max

I think I understand a couple of the points you are trying to make

However I either don't understand them all or I disagree with you on some points.

I can see absolutely no reason whatsoever why people should not ask questions how Dan was killed and what can be done to try and avoid a similar accident happening to some other poor individual. What on earth has that got to do with an unfit person running a marathon and having a heart attack?

Formula 1 has made some fantastic improvements in safety and most of us are extremely thank full for that. (apart from Stirling Moss and if I understand correctly you as well Max)

Seems strange to me Max that someone who tries to make an honest bob selling safety equipment to clubman motorsport drivers should object to questions being asked after a fatal accident about how that occured and how it could be made safer in future.

I am pleased the people in FIA are going to investigate the accident and advise the Indy organisers of potentially better safety techniques and equally is there some issues unearthed that formula 1 needs to address?
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Bob, if you didn't hear the interviews, you didn't hear the slavering at the mouth. It wasn't honest, unbiased questioning, it was bordering on salacious. The implication was "killer sport" with deaths every five minutes and I simply wanted to point out that more people die jogging.

Don't be silly, of course I'm not questioning the leaps forward in safety! Like you say it's my job. Where did I say otherwise?

Bob, this isn't the place to get involved in an argument, let's just say that I didn't intend to imply what you think I implied, if I did manage to imply it I apologise to anyone who has been offended by what I wrote.


Max max-at-midgetmax-dot-com

Strewth, and now Marco Simoncelli. Our thoughts with him.
Max max-at-midgetmax-dot-com

Edit, the above was written when Simoncelli was said to be conscious but serious. Our thoughts are with his family.
Max max-at-midgetmax-dot-com

Simoncelli was a fantastic character, a breath of fresh air, such a seemingly innocent and talented young man

Some how it always seems to happen this way...

Again, my thoughts are with his friends and family after such a tragic and abrupt accident

S Deakin

Oh No !!!!

Another racer died today... In grand prix motor cross... Aka F1 style motor cycle racing and now idiots are making connections between Dan Wheldons death last week and this guys death to day... And guess what the scary word of the day is on the talking head shows

EPIDIMIC....did i spell that correctly !

Dont get me wrong...im not agiant safty, but i fear this going to get out of control real fast.

Like one guy said... There is a reason that its not called golf or stamp collecting.

Prop

Prop

Prop.

It sells news space. Death and destruction sells column inches, and gives the "talking heads" their bread and butter. Sensationalism. You have to ignore it.

Of course they distort the reality.

Soon it translates to --- everytime there's a race anywhere, there must be an injury or a death.

Conclusion, more safety, or ban racing altogether, or hike insurance premiums so high that it becomes economically prohibitive.

Sad reality of modern reporting.
Lawrence Slater

Lawerance

You make my point exactly...although in this day and time i dont belive in ignoring this stuff... To many idiots in to high a places will try to control peoples ever move, weather its as dangerois as children eating at mc donalds or people climbing on rocks.... Theres a real need to force people to spend there time wqtching tv...its just a matter of time before something like this is deemed to dangerous and wil be banned.

After all you cant wrestle a black bear or do skywalkng on airplane wings, or creat your own car company, butcher your own livestock for personal use or even decide what crops you want to plant on your own land...or dig your own water well....just to dangerous.

Prop
Prop

Yup I can recognise similarities in what you describe, in things that are considered too dangerous over here now, unfortunately.

It's the world we seem to be living in increasingly for some reason.
Lawrence Slater

Where is this attitude to stop motorsport?
I have not seen it anywhere?

There is a big difference between calls for making the sport safer and banning it?

Formula 1 has been dangerous since the it started in 1950s but it has not been banned. For many years it killed many drivers but with a lot of effort and facing up to problems it is now probably safer than crossing the road.

It is worth remembering that at the early part of the last century when motorsport was in its very infancy it was banned when bystanders were killed in some of the early road races.

Some people seem to try and make things worse than they actually are for reasons only known to themselves Prop?

And while I am ranting this nanny state was created by the yanks when they started suing everyone who did anything. Nowadays in this country if you organise anything and some one gets hurt these "lawyers4u" take you to court and take every penny you have got. It is not because we do not want to do things it is because of lawyers4u. Ban them and we will again have a country where enjoyment is the name of the game.
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Bob,

Your last paragraph sums up the current thinking of "authorities" perfectly. When I was working I had lots of dealing with risk management which is what we did "manage risk". Nowadays risks are "managed" by never allowing any risks to be taken. My latest experience of this is the refusal of the local authority to allow their workers to collect my green waste because the bag weighed more than 15kg. When I challenged this I was told a heavier bag would be dangerous. I am gald this rule did not apply when I was working. If it had, there would have been many "dry" pubs!!!

Ray aka Mr Grumpy

Ray Rowsell

Tell me about it Ray

I have been a control and power engineer for most of my life and enjoyed it immensely.

However these last few years instead of defect elimination or making things far better and more economical I spend more than half my time protecting myself from Lawers4u. That means I do risk assessments, Authorise Risk assessment or find the reasons why someone slipped on the soap in the shower!!

Now don't get me wrong we should all strive for safety. It is our duty to ensure everyone returns home each evening to the families, however instead of that being an objective our objectives are simply to avoid prosecution!!. At work that has to be part of the job, sadly in our leisure time it is often far easier to simply do nothing than risk prosecution.

If I stand for parliament to stop these lawers4u wrecking our lives would I be elected?
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

I am in Malaysia on business at the moment and was speaking to a couple of guys last night who were at the MotoGP and witnesed Simoncelli's accident. Fortunately I have not seen the replays but their view was that it was a pure reacing accident, nothing more, nothing less and as heartbreaking as it was, that is the risk these guys take whenever they race. The media do themselves no favours whatsoever in sensational reporting and looking for scapegoats. Indycar clearly needs to ask itself some questions as to its safety standards,both of the cars and the tracks but I think the last thing anyone wants is for motorsport to become so sanitised that the risk is removed. It is the nature of the beast and partly that is why we watch and the participants compete. My view of a deathwish is the idea of riding in the Isle of Man TT (Prop, get on Youtube and check that out!) but I would defend their right to keep running it for as long as the riders are brave (and stupid) enough to keep competing!
Matt1275Bucks

Think this says it all by the people in the know

http://is.gd/bqZbJM
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

And some very considered articles in Motorsport News agree with me about the hysterical, knee jerk reporting. Oh, also oval racer Tony Stewart among others, interviewed on Autosport.com

Max max-at-midgetmax-dot-com

Matt,

You nailed my thoughts exactly....we want the sport to be safe, but we dont want it sanitized to the point that the sport is void of all risk

Prop
Prop

In the future races will be like on an oval and where you have to switch on your cruisecontroll and speedcamera's along the track in electro cars...
Cant wait... ;)
Arie de Best

This thread was discussed between 16/10/2011 and 28/10/2011

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