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MG Midget and Sprite General - High Torque starter motor

With a high compression engine (back of a fag packet makes it about 11:1) my standard starter motor has decided that enough is enough. So I have the following questions.

1. Is it normal for a standard starter motor to die after only two years on such an engine?

2. Is it worth getting a high torque starter?

3. And if so are there different types out there, which is likely to be best and how cheap can I get one?

Thanks in advance

Gary
Gary & Gaps

With the exchange rate wildly in your favor, try one from here in the usa,,, you deffinatly want one with an adjustiable mounting ring, I love mine, its a big step up from the lucas starter


Britishstarters.com

Around $200 usa money...so about 80£ your money

Prop

Prop

Also check with deb evans, she mentioned some issues the other day with them shorting out due to vibration,,,, something im not privy to, (at least I hope not hahaha)
Prop

this thread covered part of what you ask and includes Deb's remarks -
http://www2.mgcars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgbbs&mode=thread&access=&subject=97&source=T&thread=2011060711403121412
N Atkins

Gary Have run one on the Rep since I put it together. No problems (touch wood!) in 6 yrs. Cannot recall where I bought it.
Alan.
A Anstead

I've had one on mine for a few months now and it seems to do what it's supposed to do. It was the one from Moss and was about £160. It has no problem turning over and starting my fairly well tuned (10.8:1) engine with its small race battery. Then again the old one started it ok but that was with a bigger battery.

Only problem was that it didn't fit, a big problem some would say!! At the angle it was mounted it fouled on the footwell. An easy job to re-drill the mounting flange but I suppose I should really have sent it back and complained.
John Payne

Prop, you really need to have a look again at your maths. I trust you're more careful when it comes to pricing your decorating work!
Gary, I always thought for the price of one of those high torque jobbies you could buy quite a few standard motors. I think I paid about £20 for a QH one a year or two ago. The dud ones will eventually come in useful for tying down gazebos and the like.
Matt1275Bucks

Gary, are you sure it isn't the battery?
Jeremy Cogman

Hi Jeremy, we tried it with power directly from the battery on Bob's Boxter (massive battery)and it still didn't want to know.
It is an EX-starter.
Gary & Gaps

Canley Classics sell the hi-torque starters at quite a reasonable priced, and also do an installation kit if you can source a suitable starter from the scrappy. Just Google "Canley Classic"

Les
l snowdon

Canleys, being a Triumph specialist, probably don't stock a starter suitable for the A-Series.

Your best bet is either W.O.S.P for a 1.4 Kw Denso starter (with adjustable mounting ring):

http://www.wosperformance.co.uk/products/starter-motors/applications/

I use Richard's products on my Climax engines and very good they are too, although I don't have a price to hand just now.

Alternatively you could use an Edge starter from Cambridge Motorsport:

http://www.cambridgemotorsport.com/Edge-Performance-Products-MG-Edge-Starter-motors

We have one of these on the Midget racer - works well and cheaper than buying from Moss.

However see my comments in the linked thread above - you may well need to relieve the scuttle to give sufficient clearance and you may also need an engine steady bar (dependent upon your state of tune and the state of your engine mounts) to stop any impact between starter and scuttle owing to engine rock.
Deborah Evans

Mmmm

Exchange rate is $1.65

Savings of . 65 per dollar
The starter is $200

200 x .65 = 130

200 - 130 = 70£

Oh your right I was wrong... Its not 80£ it should be 70£

Prop
Prop

and the pound sign goes before the number = £70

it's the Euro that's after (I think, yes I think it is)
N Atkins

Hahahaha,

Now see if the world used my math skills we would ALL be rich,

Okay ,,, yes im wrong, should be 130£, im not sure what I was thinking,,, ither the sound of silence is just deafing, as those bugs finqllly died off and its once agian peaceful quite, of im getting really excited about driving the car vary soon

Wow,,,,truth be known, im still way off ,,, with greace coming apart the £ is in free fall... Down to $1.61 from yesterday morning

Perhaps buying the starter at home is a better idea
Prop

Tjanks nigal

I wasnt aware of the symbol placement,,,, I only just found the £ on my smart phone just the other day..... Nice, my laptop never had the £ symbol
Prop

"with greace coming apart the £ is in free fall"

Prop, not the pound(where the hell was that pound-symbol on my keyboard?) but the € (ctrl-alt-5button) is depending on greace.
Inivatably the pound will suffer too.

And the € also goes before the figures as in $ and the pound.
Arie de Best

€ is ctrl-alt-4 for me.
Geoff E

Canley unit is same as MOSS's with an adjustable fitting so should n't be a problem to fit - plus there kit to take your own sourced nippon motor is excellent
l snowdon

I dont have a euro symbol n my phone, but im sure there is an app for that
Prop

I suppose I am always a pessimist and am a miserable old git!

So my thoughts are simple, what is wrong with the original design?

Answer absolutely nothing!!

I have run ultra high compression engines for many years and have never had any problems with them starting. Equally it is not because of continued new starter motors my present engine is using a starter motor that I have owned for some 20 years or more that was second hand when purchased.

Always ensure the brushes are fine and connections and solenoid are good. I take the view if someone buys a high torque starter then there has to be a reason and it is commonsense that they have some sort of fault with the standard set up. It is only natural therefore that after purchase and fitting that they state the high torque is far better? of course it is far better your old unit was bu99ered!


Mind I also believe that when a slightly modified engine goes to a rolling road for a tune and it come off far better then it was poorly set up to start with! same story.
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

"I take the view if someone buys a high torque starter then there has to be a reason and it is commonsense that they have some sort of fault with the standard set up. It is only natural therefore that after purchase and fitting that they state the high torque is far better? of course it is far better your old unit was bu99ered!"


If you had bothered to read the linked thread then you will have seen where I CLEARLY stated that the stock starter struggled with our high CR race motor, especially when hot. Couple this with a driver who was unused to ceramo-metallic racing clutches (and who stalled it regularly getting to the forming up area), coupled with a tiny Varley race battery, and the high torque starter made perfect sense.

You would also have noticed that I stated that there was no point replacing the stock unit on an un-tuned motor IF it was in good condition.

Oh and BTW, our stock starter was NOT 'bu99ered', it was a replacement re-conned stock unit!
Deborah Evans

"Canley unit is same as MOSS's with an adjustable fitting so shouldn't be a problem to fit."

While the Canley and Moss units are 'Edge' starters, there IS a difference between that used on the Triumph 4-pots (as per Midget 1500) and that used on the A-Series. The two are NOT interchangeable!

This is evidenced by the different Parts Nos.

The former being: GXE9405XS

The latter being: GXE4405X

That fitted to the Triumph 6-pot as sold by Canley's is different again.


The cheapest supplier for Edge starters is Cambridge Motorsport since they are the main dealer for them and don't have the mark up of subsidiary dealers.
Deborah Evans

I also don't rely on the engine earthing, I have an earth strap going straight from a starter mounting bolt to the battery bulkhead earthing point.

Starter motors love current and any resistance in the earthing path will diminish the availalbe current.

Gary, how old is your starter and is its original source the person I suspect it was, Mr Nyloc?

As Deborah and Bob said (they're agreeing they just don't know it) in most situations the OE starter should be more than adequate if it is in good condition, the battery is in good condition and you have decent feed and earth connections. (and in feed connections you are also looking at the condition of the manual solenoid).

Jeremy Cogman

The 948 can power a midget just fine, ply tires will hold the air and the road, the smooth box 4 speed, can drive down the free way, and a beat up lucas steering wheel will still allow you to steer

But a hoped up 1275, stick wide tires, a type 9 5 speed, and a wooden moto lita....well thats an entirely deffent beast

Both the hi torque starter and the lucas will start most engines, but one just does it better and instyle.

What I hated about my lucas was it always kicked out once the engine started spinning even tho it hadnt fired up yet...rhis what bob was refering to,,,it had a fault,,ME,,, I didnt have it tuned to fire straight off the key, even yesterday, I took about 20 rev to come to life...even this morning ive gotten it now down to 10 revs with a lucas thats alot of key cranking, on a high torque...just hold the key till it fires.

Like I said, they both will fire most engines but one is more forgiving and only $75 - &100 more,,,,and its maintance free just luke my alt compared to the ild dyno

Prop
Prop

We are in agreement you are right Jeremy, however it was not me who jumped down my throat LOL. I didn't think my comments were aimed at or detrimental to poor old Debs, I merely stated what I believed.
:)
Bob Turbo Midget England

My old type but new in age starter always started the car fine under normal situations. But on the all to often times I spun and stalled the car on track I just got a 'dead mans click'. Usually started after 10 or 20 seconds but it's not nice being stuck on the finish line at Harewood knowing that you are holding up the smooth running of the event!!

I take it that stalling when really hot and under massive loads makes it difficult to start. Anyone else had that? Not had chance to try it with the new one but as I was fitting a smaller battery I thought I had better upgrade the starter.
John Payne

Hi John
Yes I have had that twice whilst racing a Metro with a NA engine and 12.2 C/R.

On both occassions I lost the engine whilst spinning the car at Cadwell. Once at the end of Park and the other reversing towards Mansfield having not negotiated the gooseneck too well. :)

As you said initially the solenoid simply clicked but after about 20 seconds the engine fired straight up. On those occassions I was using a standard starter with a normal battery.

I guess the engine tollerances when flat out tighten up and I soon learnt when racing a FWD car you must keep your foot in!! LOL.
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Gary, thinking on it, we didn't look at the engine-earth strap at all. Could be worth checking for a secure connection.
Bob T

Many thanks for all the feedback.
I've bought a standard starter for now as finances means I can't justify the outlay for the high torque one. I have also bought an additional earth strap and I'll try to fit them today if I manage to finish the magazine in time.
I'll check the current one with the additional earthing before I swap them over.
Gary & Gaps

I tested the starter motor with an additional earth from the bolt to the body and still no joy. Then installed the new standard starter motor and the engine started on the first turn.
I may save up for a high torque one but let's see how long this new one lasts first.

Many thanks for all your help and suggestion.

Gary
Gary & Gaps

I agree completely with Bob's comments

"I take the view if someone buys a high torque starter then there has to be a reason and it is commonsense that they have some sort of fault with the standard set up. It is only natural therefore that after purchase and fitting that they state the high torque is far better? of course it is far better your old unit was bu99ered!"

which are also so true of many things about our cars!

In my head, one big advantage of the hi-torque starter is that it is also a pre-engaged type, meaning that the ring gear lasts lots lots longer and doesn't get missing bits which can threaten to put it out of balance.

The Midget of ours we fitted one to is a 1440 with high compression AND an autotest cam. All conspire against the starter - the cam is very relevant as race cams with their later closing inlet valves have lower effective CR's. Despite this combination the car started quite happily on the original starter until it eventually wore out (as did the ring gear, see above).

I fitted a new std starter which was fine till it developed a fault, lost half the windings somewhere. Just out of warranty of course. Somewhat grumpy and not wanting to repeat the excersise, I decided to get the hi-torque unit, attracted by the reduced current drain and greater ring gear longevity. And the prospect of not having to travel 45 min each way to the home of 2nd son whenever it needed attention. So far so good!

I had previously fitted one of these units to my B - 1962cc, 12:1, autotest cam - which is the early model with the inertia starter. It completely transformed the car. It used to be a pain to start (often a push)thanks to massive voltage drop from the additional loading of its state of tune, now it is a complete doddle and practical to use for anything once again. The two starters appear to be the same unit with different adaptor plates. If they are, then it will have pletny of power in reserve for any Midget engine!

Paul Walbran

On my 1500 engine i needed to replace the starter every year(+/- 10.000km).
Had it checked by 3 different garages what would coulse it but non could find anything.
Ordered a high torque starter but from the 2 I had non fitted without having to cut the footwell.
They must be improved know to fit a lhd 1500 midget.

I just replaced the Bosch-starter for a Caterham one but sure it makes a difference: its very quick to start!
Does make bit of a whining noice tho but it works!!(sofar..) ;)
Arie de Best

This thread was discussed between 16/06/2011 and 20/06/2011

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