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MG Midget and Sprite General - Heritage Shell Not Allowed in Concours?

Well I was at the Northern National MG event run by the Harrogate MG club, great event as usual.

There was a guy there telling everyone that Heritage Shells are not allowed to compete in concours and can only be in condition or POO.

Anyone heard this before?

Its news to me

Thanks

Simon
Simon Taylor

I guess it makes sense being that a proper concourse IMO is originality and not some over restored, chromed up replica of what the car once was.

PeterJMoore

It sounds strange...

Though I would not be surprised to see a big points deduction when using a heritage shell in a concours.

As they are basicly 1500 shells retro fitted with all the panels to make it look like any earlyer MK.
So the panels like floors and other hidden ones are 1500 and are different from earlyer MK's

Plus the dies for the pannels have worn out a fair bit making heritage panels always look a little bulgy.

All of this can never be completely hidden so it will never win (dependant on the competition off course)
Onno Könemann

He was also saying they were made in China and are not proper MG's

Simon Taylor

If he was the judge - then worry! If he wasn't then he's not important and just demonstrating his ignorance :)
rachmacb

Onno, my car is on a heritage shell and i can assure you, it certainly is not a fifteen hundred dressed back! lol i understand what you are saying about if it is anything earlier than mk3 but 1500's are different again to the rwa models (felt the need to defend my cars honour)
WDT Corry

Ill jump on the back of Mr Corry's post and say that the shells are of Mk3 tooling and not that of the 1500/spitfire shed things (gotta get the stab in Rach :P )

The Heritage Schpeel:

All bodyshells use:

Original press dies
– produce the majority of the components – over 3000 press tools weighing in excess of 2500 tonnes have been found, identified and recommissioned. Where press tools have been lost or irrevocably modified, British Motor Heritage Limited has invested heavily in new press tools to enable production of the many body variants.

Original assembly jigs
– crucial to the build of any assembly or bodyshell are the manufacturing assembly jigs. Again, these have been found and recommissioned. They ensure the dimensional integrity of the bodyshell.

Original facilities
– a purpose built and dedicated assembly area is used for the manufacture of all bodyshells. To ensure the quality of weld is to the required standard, welding equipment identical to that used by major motor manufacturers is used.

Original technical data and specifications
– for all parts and assemblies produced have been used to check detail, process and quality.

So going by their site, the Mk2, Mk3 and Mk4 run off the original tooling which is seperate to the 1500.

Although I would dare say the 1500 is the re-engineered one from the flock, taking a good shell and welding loads of useless guff to it for those who wish to keep the additional ballast.

I just wish, and have made my feelings known to them, that they would produce a GAN1/HAN6 shell for those of us inclined towards the earlier cars.
PeterJMoore

There may be something in the 1500 theory however as I believe there might be difference in the front suspension pick up points. A lot of Heritage shelled cars seem to ride high at the front. Mine did until I lowered it!
Having said that I can't see any reason why a Heritage shelled car shouldn't be eligible for concours competitions. As far as I can tell an awful lot of pre war restored cars have entirely new bodies and chassis on them and I've never seen any comment that they weren't eligible.
Thank goodness for BMH for without the remanufacture of panels and complete shells a lot of our cars, mine included, wouldn't be on the road today!

Simon,
The guy who says they're made in China is obviously talking out of his backside and his opinion should be disregarded so I wouldn't worry!
Matt1275Bucks

My dearest Pete - your comments are noted - and totally ignored as ever :P!

No, seriously, a Mk 1 should be a Mk 1 and a 1500 should be a 1500 - if BMH are trying to pass off one as the other, then they shouldn't! I can't see, however, that a heritage shell should sit anywhere different than the shell it replaced - unless that was so heavy due to previous welding, that it is sat too low, rather than original - after all, the shell is not the place of height, but what it is sat on!

rachmacb

All heritage shells that I know of have 1500 floor pans (hole for the propshaft) and numerous other small abnormalitys

Happy to see no one commented on the bulgy lookdue to the worn dies.
That must still be true then ;)

Not saying a heritage shell is a bad thing.
It is great they exist to save the ones that are to fare gone.
But I would rather have a well repaired original than a shiny new heritage shell
Onno Könemann

Maybe the "bulging" comes from different material spec. ie. the sheet metal nowadays is of better quality, less contaminations and lower in carbon (?) making it react different in the press and having a different stress pattern after pressing.
Alex G Matla

Hello all and thanks for your comments so far.

On the subject of the 'bulging' I find it hard to understand how this can happen.

I am sure the steel that was used originally was of different grades throughout the life of these cars so consistency of all the cars must have been difficult to manage if that was the case.

Who says the presses by BMH are worn? Can this really be the case? I would have thought that if the presses were worn then this would make fitting the panels together very tricky as they are not going to wear in a consistent manner and the bulging would be more apparent. Can anyone shed any light on this?

I am sure a lot of midgets that have been repeatedly restored over the lifetime of the car has had aftermarket panels and even home made panels and repair sections added to it. Surely cars such as these must be less original than a new body shell?

I find it hard to believe that BMH panels made on the original presses can be so far off original spec. The tolerances on these cars are not of the same standard as modern cars; panel gaps are not at critical so there seems to be a lot of room for adjustment.

I saw some guys from BHM hand finishing MGB wings at Silverstone this year, they sure didn't look to be overall bulging and didn't have any bulging areas on them. Surely if there were any problems with the panels then this would be corrected when prepped and sprayed.

Where can you buy non bulging panels from if you are restoring a car and how are they made that make then better than BMH ones?

My opinion about this subject is that there is quite a lot of snobbery about heritage shells for some reason. I personally think they are a great idea. In theory they sound perfect, they use original presses made by some of the original people that worked on the cars, hand finished and replace all the patchwork and non-original panels added to car over its life. Also they must be safer than a patched car, as its all new panels.

This is just my opinion of course and hoping to be corrected if I am totally wrong.


Simon


Simon Taylor

The only problem I have with heritage shell is the cost. i.e. I cannot afford one, so its tin snips, free steel sheets and MIG welder for me.
Guy

AFAIK heritage shells are made with the origina BMC/BL tooling.
Making dies to press steel panels is a very costly affair an investment that is not going to be made back by selling panels to the enthousiast classic car owner.
That is why they use the originals that have stamped manny panels.
And they are worn making angles not as sharp as they used to be.

You do not have to take my word for it just find a heritage shell at a show next to a good original one.
The heritage shell looks great but look at it down the sides and it will be less straigt than the original one

The panel fit is not an issue as you always will have to fettle a panel to make it fit.
Onno Könemann

A guy I know had a very early BMH shell and he had quite a battle to get restitution regarding what he considered to be a number of serious defects with it. I also heard about the same time someone threatened to take them to court regarding the poor fit of panels and some other items. IIRC BMHs stance at the time was they were trying to keep costs down. I have heard that they have subsequently raised their standards regarding fits etc and consequently the prices have gone up, but less work to be done or have to pay someone to correct to get the shell to a good standard of finish.
David Billington

Ok so we have established that BMH presses are worn out and cannot create sharp edges and correct spec panels.

Where can you buy better ones, who makes them and did they invest in new presses or are they hand made?

Simon
Simon Taylor

Simon,

Please could you email me (gary frogeye at g mail dot com), no gaps etc. Regarding another matter.
Thanks

Gary
Gary & Gaps

the panel gaps on my heritage shelled car are spot on. this car has been in competition its entire life. i would guess an original shell would have needed a lot more strenghtening to take the use this car has seen. It is a credit to bmh to continue with the cars. and in regard to bulging etc. any cars final fitment is only as good as the body man working on it.
WDT Corry

Onno,
Is this what you mean? The A post and front wing appear to have a very slight curvature to them.
If so it certainly doesn't bother me and I gain some comfort from knowing my shell was very much hand built with far more attention to detail than the original, is made of betterquality steel than BL chose to use in 1973 and has a degree more rustproofing.
I agree with Guy however. The shells are very expensive these days. Mine was done in 1997 and I think cost around £2,300 after paint.

Matt1275Bucks

"That is why they use the originals that have stamped manny panels.
And they are worn making angles not as sharp as they used to be. "

Case not helped by the thiner metal being used !!
K Harris

LOL I suspect that Guy has hit the nail right on the head!

Simon - in answer to your question - then, you can get them from other suppliers, such as Ashley Hinton, however, I haven't heard that there are problems - I would just keep looking around the best you can - and ignoring idiots who don't know the difference between Abingdon and China .........! It's great that the marque has been bought, but, BMH was never part of the deal ;)
rachmacb

And I see what is said about front ride height... ;P
Alex G Matla

Alex
that photo makes it look worse than it was. Partly the angle of the shot and unevenness of my drive. However it is significantly lower now!
Matt1275Bucks

Hi

How do companies like Ashley Hinton made body panels? Are they hand made.

I have seen steelcraft panels, how are these made?
Are they better?

Simon
Simon Taylor

Steel craft only does repair panels AFAIK that are the "easy" panels with limeted shape (double curves) in ordere to keep the dies cheap.

Matt
Sorry in france on my iphone now so hard to check out the pick.
But it usualy shows around the A post and behind the door ( though the latter one can easly be filled to look correct)
Onno Könemann

Anyone know where you can buy original full size panels that are not 'bulgy'?

Also how can you tell if they are good?


Or do you need to buy original second hand items and restore them?

Simon
Simon Taylor

Simon
You can dress the panels to make them "tight" again.
But used panels in good nick are usualy cheaper than new ones any way.
Onno Könemann

Simon

As far as new panels go, Heritage have the "right" tooling.

If you are looking for even further inferiority in steel grades, thickness's and panel fit then start looking at the spurious makers out there.

But the number of people who buy crap panels, then return to buy the Heritage ones is huge, and those that dont either spend the extra on having a bodyshop make the panels fit properly or end up with a car that looks like it was welded up by a 5 year old.
PeterJMoore

Peter is right

I never said and never ment to say that BMH make a lousy product.
They don't!
I just ment to say there are differences between heritage panels and original ones.
And can understand that concours judges therefore rate original as "better"

Heritage panels are the best new panels you can buy
They differ from the originals but then so do most new parts
Onno Könemann

" the Mk2, Mk3 and Mk4 run off the original tooling which is seperate to the 1500."

Can you get a heritage shell for the Mk 2 with its different size cockpit?
Mothy - '65 GAN3 and '65 HAN8

Hi

I am not sure that the original panels fitted very well.

Have a look at the following pictures from period brochures. Now these are cars that were used for promotion so you can only presume that they would have been fettled with.

I know when cars were sent to car shows the paint was superior to manufactured cars.

What do you think.

Simon

Simon Taylor

another

Simon Taylor

and one more.

Simon Taylor

And another!

Simon Taylor

looks like the journos got their hands on them they can destroy a car in a day :)
Nigel At

Simon,

Why does it look like someone is just about to land on the car after a parachute jump in the 2nd photo.
David Billington

because they are just about to land on the car after a parachute, Or jumping over with a skateboard.
Gary & Gaps

I think, for purely research reasons only, we should be shown what kind of event gets funny looking footwear like that appearing over the bonnet of a Spridget

Blooming odd advert for the shoe trade

:-)

Bill 1

They're only trying to get the bonnet to fit properly.
Rob Armstrong

I always liked the skateboard advert - way better than the stupid one that was used on the rallyboard of midget 50
rachmacb

Ha haha, good one rob
Simon Taylor

Simon's pic shows it well. The panels never were a brilliant fit. These are first generation monocoque cars, today's precision had yet to evolve.

I learned the lesson very early on, the first time I rolled my B. New front wing wouldn't fit, so I figured I had not got the shell properly straight (would not surprising after 90mph end-over-end in a rally) and spent hours comparing measurements with various customers' cars. Couldn't find the difference. In the end I made a profile of the offending area and compared it with the RH wing. That's where the difference was! So I took the wing back and got another ... which was exactly the same. These were "proper" wings made while the B was still in production.

Then of course there is the well known assymetry of the body of both B & Midget which makes the axle look offset.

I could go on, but you should get the picture.

A perfect concours car is the non original one. The reason they don't like Heritage is probably they show the original foibles!
Paul Walbran

Paul,

Your issue with the MGB wing maybe due to it being a replacement. I was told some years back that many panels that didn't fit properly in the factory were sold as replacements, let the body shop sort out the fit.
David Billington

David

Entirely possible .... and send it as far away as possible so it can't return! :-)

They were both early (>69) B wings so would have been around for some time for that to be the case. One way or another they were still wings from the original production series, so the lack of consistent fit is nothing new, in fact entirely original.

Your info re the fate of ones which didn't fit easily rather bears this out too!
Paul Walbran

This thread was discussed between 09/08/2011 and 12/08/2011

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