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MG Midget and Sprite General - Heated windscreen?

Morning all.

Been looking round the interweb again for things that might exist and be a good idea. And today's is heated windscreens for the Sprite. And it would appear that Frontline sell a front one, although at the price of £210. Does anyone else do such a part? Having had a few old cars before, I know the heaters always struggle to clear the screen in the time that my impatience will allow! And since I'm rebuilding the whole thing anyway, I can always sort the wiring out for it as I go.

So does anyone know if there's a cheaper heated front screen? Or for that matter a heated rear screen for the Honeybourne Moulding hard top? If I can get both that would make my life much easier!
S Overy

There is a supplier who sells via ebay from time to time. I think they are in the Birmingham area. From memory they were more expensive than Frontline.

I've gone for the Frontline option. Can't tell you how effective it is yet as the car is not on the road yet.
P R Clark

Never had any problems with my heater demisting the frontscrean but for those whove done away the heater I can see the use of it.
Arie de Best

once you clean the whole cooling system including the matrix and renew the seal around it and dealt with blower motor if necessary the heater gets very hot an with footwell flaps closed there a breeze of hot air does make it on to the small windscreen

my Spridget screen clears a lot quicker than my wife's modern car windscreen even if she also uses the air-con

here a thing that might be forgotten nowadays - often the quickest way to clear the screen is to open the door windows

if you do go for a heated screen I'd suggest from personal experience you get try to buy it from another supplier
N Atkins

There are lots of little extra blowers available for sale for under £20 if you're that impatient!!!

It can be annoying but a clean chamois cloth block and the front 1/4 light for a couple of miles seems a way cheaper and easier option to me and less electrics to go wrong.
rachmacb

Don't get me wrong, there are cheaper options, but this will be my only car and will get driven all year round so just having the 1/4 light open isn't really an option as I live out in the sticks and need to see as well as possible. And since I'm already spending a fair bit on it, another £200 isn't much difference. Also, since I'm rebuilding the whole car, the electrics won't be a problem.
S Overy

True, on a frosty morning if the car is kept outside, it can take a little while, and if you need to be off asap, it can be a real pain.

However, I agree. Spending money on a heated screen is a bit of a waste imo. Extra blower, chamois, open qtr/light or side window.

Another thing to consider is how long the element will last. I had 2 failures on my integral heated rear BMW's.

So is it worth the risk on an unproven new product?

For 50 quid I would, but for the price asked, I wouldn't.
Lawrence Slater

Good point about the expected life span, I hadn't though of that. But then I've never had a heated screen fail either.

Just how quickly will the standard heater get up to temp with the car sat on the driveway? It often gets cold enough here to freeze the inside of a screen, but if I can find a very good heater set up then that may well suffice.
S Overy

Maplin do a blower/heater designed for the job and it plugs into the lighter socket (assuming that you have one). It could also be useful for additional heating, which your heated windscreen won't help with. However I understand what you are saying and it's nice to have some good quality delux fittings which aren't a compromise.
Gary & Gaps

I've used a hair drier on an extension lead before now to defrost the screen. I've also used a bottle of warm water.

But how about you buy a 12volt one.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Roadpro-RPSC-818-12V-Hairdryer/dp/B000BHQ5JC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320921724&sr=8-1

Edit, Gary posted before I got there.
Lawrence Slater

Whilst I see what you guys are getting at, I don't want to be faffing about with extra bits or hand held heaters. I'm looking for a solution that I can fit to the car as I build it that will work on it's own. As Gary says, I don't want it to be a compromise if I can help it.
S Overy

After I posted that, I thought about it more seriously.

Why not build in a 12V electric heater? Strip and modify a suitable hair drier/heater and duct the output, either to the existing screen airflow vents, or to additional ones.

Lawrence Slater

The simplest and cheapest way to have a clear screen on a winters morning is to put a large piece of cardboard on it over night. Equally effective on classic and modern.

I find the biggest headache with demisting is when you leave the car for a couple of hours on a damp evening and the inside of the windscreen collects a heavy dew which only shifts in a hurry with a chamois, but thats because I dont use a hood.

Trev
T Mason

I think that perhaps you're mistaken - as, everyone who has posted on here is talking from experience of the spridget being their only car!!!

And, as for living in the sticks - that sounds rather too crowded for me :P!!!

Seriously, I drove mine all the last two winters in -10C and below with the 1/4light open for about 3/4 mile, and it was fine - I have a cloth pad that does the inside, which freezes at least as much as the outside, and my heater wasn't even particularly working very well, but I never had any troubles whatsoever - and, trust me, at 2000 miles a month (1500 of which was for work!), I never had any troubles whatsoever - and I'm still alive with all my toes and fingers, so, definately no frostbite!!!

If you want to use your Spridget as a daily driver, I'm afraid that you are going to have to "get used to" it being a classic car, and all that that entails - and, well, there's plenty of old folk here who drove them when they were new to prove to us youngsters that it's possible - then, and now!
rachmacb

That's just it though, since I'm re-building the entire thing, I want to try and remove some of those things that folk used to just put up with! If I can't then so be it, but if there's a not overly daft way of making life easier, then I'd like to try it.

I'm not fussed about the cold as much, my last car had no roof, windscreen or heater and I needed 3 layers of thermals to drive it in the snow. But that doesn't mean I'd object to being warm!
S Overy

I think Frontline will probably the cheapest at £210.

The ebay seller was about £250 IIRC and Moss were somewhere in between.
D O'Neill

If you want it fit it.
For hardtops you have plenty of stickon window heaters (with the wire's)

If you want to use it daily keep it as std as posible (with minor exeptions as electronic ignition) as it will keep it the most reliable
Onno Könemann

I've elected to go with the heated screen & seats as a way of disposing with the heater altogether. I've gone down this route only because I'm fitting a K series.

Before starting the conversion the car was generally pretty warm & pleasant even if it took a while to clear the screen.

To each their own...
P R Clark

Onno,

Reliability is being dealt with my getting rid of the A series. I'm basically changing every mechanical component on the car, so once I get it all set up, it should be as reliable as any modern(ish) car.

PR Clark, where did you get your screen from, and if you don't mind, how much for?
S Overy

S
In my experiance that is not the case!
All those mods take some time to get working properly.

Just a bog std 1275 a-series and std car have proven time and again to be able to withstand constant use and abuse without any problems.
The key is proper rebuilding and maintenance.

(almost sounded like Nigel there ;) )
Onno Könemann

Nearly, although you forgot the Driver's Manual bit! ;)

I'd like to think I'm building it all properly, although given that so much of what I'm doing hasn't been done together, I am expecting a few teething issues!
S Overy

I've got a heated front window on my mondeo. It's about the only thing I like about the car! When there's ice on the window and everybody is scraping I just turn it on, wait a moment, wipe and go!
Alex G Matla

S Overy,

My screen came from Frontline & cost £200+ (can't recall exactly as I had some other bits at the same time too). Less than the ebay seller I think.

The issue was not just supply, at the time I purchased Frontline did not want to fit the screens as they had broken a few struggling to get them to fit with the standard rubber seal.

They tell me that they will fit them now as they've built a jig to ease the frames, seals & glass together gently.

At the time I took my screen & frame to a local MG specialist to fit. They struggled & could not achieve a good fit but at least they did not break the glass.

I then took it to Old School Windcreens near Chertsey where Robert, one of the directors, did a great job of fitting it. I'm now very happy with the fit. Don't be decieved by all the modern stuff they do. They also have the experience for our cars.

So. When considering the Frontline supplied screen make sure you have someone who can fit it as it is slightly thicker than the stock item & that can cause problems with the seals.

There are specialists & then there are specialists...
P R Clark

Thanks for that, that's good to know and something I hadn't thought about. Did you wire it in yourself, or did you use Frontline's kit?
S Overy

Let's go back to the beginning.

You want to get in, start up and go. You don't want to wait for the heater to warm up and clear the screen, or have to play around with cloth or scraper, or cover.

I reckon that's fair enough.

Mine lives in a garage these days, and whilst in the past for a very long time I was used to having to scrape and wipe , I didn't particularly think it made my day, so to speak. I'm glad I don't have to do it now.

I agree, if the Spridget was built today, they might have a hard time selling many, if it didn't have some mod cons. So with that in mind you want to mod yours to some up to date standards.

How well do the heated front screens for Spridgets actually work?

How long from say a 1/4 inch of frost to a clear screen?

Will you still have to sit in the car with the engine running, or in your house with a cup of cha, waiting for a clear screen?

You've got me thinking of a winter project. Build in a heating element, under the dash, triggered by a frost stat. You'd only need the heat from 10 watts or less to drift screenwards to do the job of preventing a frost covered screen I reckon. All you need to do is keep the screen above 0 deg C.


Lawrence Slater

Simon (for I have seen your name now),

My car is currently with Frontline for the engine installation & they will be wiring up the car including heated screen.

If you do take the heated screen route also consider drilling the lower rail of the frame and the scuttle panel to allow the electical cables to pass through the frame & body for the neatest fit.

I didn't take this route and so have the slightly untidy cables coming out of the frame seal before routing down through the air vents above the dash.

BTW, what gearbox are you using with the v6 & is it a standard component or does it need a special bellhousing?

Note Frontline are using a 6 speed Mazda box in their LE50.
P R Clark

Lawrence,

That's pretty much my thinking. If for some small effort I can remove the hassle that is de-icing a screen then I don't see why not. But I think some more info on how long it'll actually take to de-ice.

Mr Clark,

I'll be using a Mk1 MX-5 box, although it does need an adaptor plate. The latest MX-5 box bolts to the Duratec engine. Is that what Frontline are doing? Also, good tip on the wiring. Since I'll be building the loom myself I'd like to to be as hidden as I can manage too.
S Overy

Frontline LE50 uses a Mazda 2.0 engine & gearbox. All brand new fresh out of the box.
P R Clark

Simon, when hearing your planing to use it as a daily and your doing a rewiring anyway I think you should go for the heated frontscreen.
Wouldnt it be cool if Frontline did a touchscreen-satnav in the frontscreen too?
Hmm, might cal Ed and see what he can do. :)
Arie de Best

How about this for an idea.

"The ideal solution for a cost effective way to heat a small space or an area that needs to be protected from frost."

Mount a 12 inch tubular heater under the dash or somewhere else hidden in the car.

1FT Tubular Heater 45watt (305 x 55 x 55(mm))

http://www.tlcelec.co.uk/product/184/5415/Heating/Tubular_Heaters/Hyco_Tubular_Heaters__4_sizes_available___TH.html

Power it with a small inverter mounted somewhere for example, above the parcel shelf, or any small spare space.

Input: DC 10V-15V Output Voltage: 230V AC Output Power:150W continuous. Dimensions: 157mmx67mm diameter

http://www.caravantechnology.com/150W-Power-Inverter-P100C18.aspx

Rig it to a frost stat, and bob's yer uncle. No more frost on the screen ever.
Lawrence Slater

"Rig it to a frost stat, and bob's yer uncle. No more frost on the screen ever."

Just a flat battery when you come to start it in the morning. Never mind, you will soon warm up push starting it down the road!
Guy

oi, owners Handbook or Driver's Handbook, not manual please :)

fair enough if you put a heated screen in but add a warning light as the last (but one) time I lent my battery charger out was for a Ford owner with a heated screen

Sorry Steve I can't remember where you are but I'm in Npton surely unless you're in Daventry, Corby or Cold Ashby you're just about as well sheltered, apart from the rare extremes it's not like being up north

I meant I wind the door windows fully down not opening or leaving open a quarterlight

as rach says there the odd days of using a chamois for a short distance, perhaps like tomorrow

I must admit I like to scrape my windscreen and door windows to make sur they'll fully clear and there not much glass in total is there

if it's not freezing weather at the time I clear the glass in seconds with warm water, been doing it for years, the secret is the temperature of the water
N Atkins

apologies, Simon
N Atkins

"Rig it to a frost stat, and bob's yer uncle. No more frost on the screen ever."

"Just a flat battery when you come to start it in the morning. -- "

But would it be flat?

Minspares say the front heated screen for a mini is rated at 17amps. 12V @ 17A is 204 watts.

The tube heater uses 45watts at 230 V. Crudely that is 45/230 = 0.195A. It would only be on when the stat senses 0degC. If the frost stat were placed to sense screen temp, it wouldn't be on continuosly.

Instead of melting a thick frost, it woould only be preventing a frost by keeping the glass above 0 deg C.

I've got a touch of flu, so my logic might off tonight. :)
Lawrence Slater

Inverters are not very efficient IIRC
D O'Neill

Lawrence, your maths is certainly off! 45W at 230V is actually 5.1A, which is a substantial enough drain to easily flatten a battery over night.
S Overy

Hi P

No, at least my maths is correct.

Power(P), is the product of Curent(I) and Voltage (V).

Thus P/V=I 45W/230V=0.1957A, or 195.7mA. Not much current drain at all.

As for the inverter. I would assume that the losses would be in heat, this would help. But I confess I don't know how much current an inverter would drain to go from 12 to 230V.

Lawrence Slater

Simon,your maths may be right but your formula is wrong!
When I went to school, admittedly a long time ago, Amps= Watts/Volts. So 45w/230v = 0.196amps. Its just that if you park the car up for a couple of days even this could be drawing for long enough to drain the battery.

I am not convinced at the idea that on a frost stat it would only come on intermittantly. Certainly last winter the temp never got above freezing for weeks on end wher I live. And with the "insulation" afforded by a damp hood you would in effect be trying to heat the outside world with a 45 amp heater.
Guy

Iverter efficiency.

http://www.solar-facts.com/inverters/inverter-efficiency.php

But, I agree, an inverter would be an unwanted drain. I haven't looked but i would guess that there must be 12vDC sealed tube heater systems out there somewihere.


"Never let a bad idea be shot down in flames, by negative thinking"
Lawrence Slater

Guy,

You wouldn't leave it powered for days on end. My idea would be to switch it on when you expected to drive the car within a reasonable time.

As for heating the outside world. The only requirement is to keep the screen above 0degC, If the heater element is sited immediately below the screen this should keep the screen above freezing.

Of course if you happen to park in very extreme temperatures, even an internally heated screen is also going to neccesitate a period of sitting and waiting for the screen to overcome the outside temperature, and clear the frost, before you can drive away.
Lawrence Slater

Actually Lawrence is a good idea, its is only that I don't think I could be bothered! I will just stick with the ice scraper. When I remember I have a lightweight nylon cover that just hooks over the hood and windows (not the whole car) and that keeps the frost off all the windows pretty well most of the time.
Guy

Argh, it's too damn early! Although, a 45W draw, even at 230V will still need a 45W input, if not more to the inverter, so I'd guess a 4A fed would be needed. Or is it still too early and I've got that back to front?

Whilst I can see the logic of a frost stat, it is something that requires me to remember to both switch it on and off. Which means I will forget at some point and flatten the battery. But on the plus side, I already have a hard top for when it gets too cold to risk taking the roof down so it wouldn't be quite as bad as trying to heat a damp hood.
S Overy

I remember years ago owning a BGT with a mains heater in the top hose. Plug the car in to the mains overnight, unplug in the morning, toasty!
Do they still exist?
Graham.
Graham P 1330 Frogeye

I agree Guy, it is easy enough with a scraper/cover. But not as easy, as NOT having to use a scraper or cover at all.

And if the objective is "as easy as possible" then I reckon it's worth the effort. To me it presents a challenge. An interesting one at that.

Graham, I was thinking that kind of thing too.

How about in deepest Siberia, where oil freezes in the sump? The age old solution was to light a fire under the engine. Surely there must be a more modern solution.

Also, if the car is near enough to the house, then why not keep a spare power source nearby, to plug the car into?

Lateral thinking is all that's needed here.

The best solution is an internal element in the front screen, that will not flatten the battery, AND will instantly deffrost the screen, AND will be reliable for at least say 10 years?

A warranty is no more than an insurance policy that says we'll replace it or give your money back if it fails within 1 year. I've googled quite a few failures of heated front screens. The technology is yet to fully mature it sems to me.

A spridget screen is a bugger to change anyway, still a bigger bugger, if it is a thicker heated version. So you don't want to change it more than once it seems to me.

So, if you still want to get in and drive, however frosty it is outside, then prevention is better than melting the ice. IMO of course.
Lawrence Slater

From a glass point of view, the heater elements in front screens are not designed to de - ice, only to de-mist and or prevent icing by keeping the glass warm once they are at the correct temp.
If used to de-ice, the 'thermal shock' can cause a laminated screen to crack!
Mick - still wiring!!

Graham

That would be the Kenlowe Hotstart

http://www.kenlowe.com/pre-heaters/cars/whatwill.html
D O'Neill

So there you go, Kenlowe have a product, and so do quite few others. (google search).

See the link below. A discussion about making your own, both 12V and mains voltage.

http://forum.landrovernet.com/showthread.php/82734-Home-made-hotstart
Lawrence Slater

This thread was discussed between 10/11/2011 and 11/11/2011

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