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MG Midget and Sprite General - H4 halogen conversion

Hello all,
I think that this has probably been covered before but the 'search' didn't give me anything, so apologies.
I have installed relays and upgraded my headlamp wiring to a heavier gauge, which has dramatically improved the lighting however I still have the original sealed units and want to upggrade to halogen, with replaceable bulbs.
I read that the Cibie have about 50% better output than the Hella but haven't seen comparison to Wipac, Narva and the cheap eBay ones. The Cibie appear to be about twice the price of the Wipac - are they worth it?
I've also read that the Philips X-treme Vision and Osram Night Breaker Plus are the best H4 bulbs. Again, are they effective and worth the extra cost when put into a 7" reflector globe?
Thanks,
Steve
gusangora

Steve,
this has all been covered fairly recently but I can't remember the details

I swapped from sealed beam to (flat faced) Lucas Halogen and found them to be a good improvement

I've not neeeded to use relays (yet) perhaps my wiring is in better condition than some :)

I thought I might try the Phillips or Osram bulbs if I see them half price again

as you get the halogen bulbs with the lights why mot just use them at first at least to see if you need to further upgrade
N Atkins

Nigel
You don't have to use relais but the improvement is dramatic.

Steve here on the continent sealed beam units ar against the law so we always had duplo bulbs and normal lucas reflectors (not the flat glass they just look wrong)
I just fitted special halogen bulbs to these and is is perfect.

I did think about switching to the special H4 reflectors and blueish bulbs until I read a test by the dutch RAC comparing all kinds of bulbs and head lamps.
It is in paper and only dutch but the conclusion was :
More wats works
Blue whiteish tint is useles and gives more reflections on wet roads
Gas discharge lamps gave only a slight improvement but again on a wet road give more reflections
Onno Könemann

When fitted with like for like bulbs including wattage I can't imagine that Cibie lamp units rather than Wipac lamp units will produce anything close to 50% more light (lux). It just so happens that I can back up my statement with first hand experience as I've just replaced my Wipac H4 units with Cibie H4 units. My experience isn't a direct comparasion as one of the Wipac units had some deterioration to the reflector (bit of rust starting to appear). The Cibie units aren't worse and probably are slightly better. I do have 160W/100W bulbs so have plenty of light output.

Are Cibie units worth the extra cost? They were to me, because I like to be different and I like the best, however marginal the best might be.

Old lamp units with no bulbs are languishing in my garage if anyone happens to drop by and want them - if not I'll take them to Silverstone in the new year to give away!
Daniel Thirteen-Twelve

Not got a lot of experience with different set ups but when I did my conversion, which was a huge leap over standard, I was told wipac did not cast as good a spread of light as Cibie and I can confirmm that on full beam the wipacs light up the road a long way ahead but do leave a slightly dull area in front of the car. Not too much of an issue as when yopu have full beam on you are usually looking far ahead anyway.

The change makes such a difference I would recommend everyone should do it.

Mark
Mark '59 Frog

Onno,
my switches must be better than most too then :)

I must admit I bought the flat (fronted) lens because it said they gave the best pattern of light and when first fitted they did look very odd but after a while I forgot about it and don't notice now, the pattern of light is good, could always do with more on dip but they're probably better than my wife's modern car on dip - and that's got relays :)
N Atkins

My experience of H4s is Wipac and Lucas, with Lucas being superior. Wipac are an improvement over sealed beams, however.
Dave O'Neill2

thanks for the replies/opinions. The link below is where I read that the Cibie are 50% greater than the Hella:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=135045772&postcount=21
Comparison made by Daniel Stern.
Steve Travis

I have Hellas and I like them over the cheap autopal units in my other car.
Trevor Jessie

I had problems with the Wipacs corroding after a short time with virtually no wet running - would have been MOT failure in under 3 years.

Changed to Cibie - much better and in my opion worth the additional cost.

Not as good as the Cibie Biodes from the 70's, not made any more unfortunately and mega expensive on E bay.

R.
richard boobier

Hi Onno,

I didn't know that about sealed beam units being against the law over there. Is this a recent thing? Do you know the reasoning behind it?

Are we in the UK are supposed to convert to replaceable lamps if intending to drive on the continent?
Lawrence Slater

It makes at lot of sense to change to bulb headlamp units for driving in Europe as it is mandatory to carry spares bulbs IIRC. Or alternatively carry a spare sealed beam unit in case of failure to be legal.
Doug Plumb

Hi Doug,

Actually I do convert to bulbs, I just wasn't aware the sealed beams are illegal in the rest of EU. If it is, then a spare sealed beam is no good, and presumably could get you a fine (theoretically).

Personally I've been using replaceable lamps for over 25 years. I picked up a set of right hand dip glasses and bulbs, when in greece a very long time ago. There was an old car dumped by the side of the road near a bar, and I helped myself to the lights with the permission of the bar owner, who told me it was scrap. I've used them ever since when on the continent.

Also like Nigel, I haven't added relays, and my switch seems to cope pretty well, giving me plenty of light.

But I agree, a relay and a new run of cable for higher wattage lamps would definitely be worth doing.
Lawrence Slater

Well Lawrence I must admit illegal is a bit of a strong word.

In holland they do not comply with out MOT demands and you are mandatory to change a bulb asap when it fails (thought the cops are easy on this rule as some modern cars make it realy hard on you)

So it is inpractical to use sealed beam units but they are not explicitly forbiden.

Certainly not for cars from abroad as you have the wrong lights anyway ;)

But I can think of no reason to use sealed beam units other than that they happen to be fitted
Onno Könemann

Ah, ok thanks Onno.

Yup we quaint brits and our left hand driving lol. We just have to be different. :) It's in our nature.

We can even still sell potatoes in lbs/ounces, as long as we put the kg measurement too. lol. So we do. ha ha. Just to be bloody minded I suspect, because there's no doubt kg/g is far easier. :)
Lawrence Slater

Itr's not just we British - I've seen stuff in French shops priced in Francs as well as Euros, as recently as earlier this year!
David Smith

Ha that's formidable David.

I thought the French loved all thing Euro, but it seems then that they are still good old nationalists at heart, just like us and the rest of the EU. LOL.

What hope does the Euro have when a core member still uses the Franc :).

Long live independance, and I look forward to spending lire and Drachma again soon :)
Lawrence Slater

Regarding the necessity of fitting relays when upgrading to halogen headlights, there is a school of thought that relays are not really needed.

Call it a coincidence, but having just upgraded to H4 Halogens (65/55w) my main beam switch has just given up the ghost so it's relays from now on.

The annoying thing is that the late 1500 (GAN6 200001 on) column switches are unavailable new (part no. ADU1021)

Anyone out there got a s/h one?

Dave
D MATTHEWS

I think the need for relays depends on age/wear of wiring and switches as the bulbs draw the same power

I though rach was sorting you a s/h switch or you was getting an earlier switch and sorting the wiring(?)
Nigel Atkins

Old original switches will last longer than new repros.
Yes the wattage is the same but halogens pul full power instantly where normal bulbs have a slight glow time easing the switch gear in to full power.
This only takes parts of seconds to seconds but does cause more wear.

But the best argument for relays with power though thick wires straight from the batery is the added voltage.
And the relation of voltage and lumen is not linear..... those last tenths of volts have a lot of effect.
Onno K

True Nigel,

Unfortunately Rachel could't help. I'm trying for the easier option first - a like for like replacement. An earlier switch and sorting the wiring is a last resort.

Dave
D MATTHEWS

>>Yes the wattage is the same but halogens pul full power instantly where normal bulbs have a slight glow time easing the switch gear in to full power.

Hi Onno

IIRC bulb filaments have a resistance that increases with temperature, so this means the bulbs take max current on switch on.

Standard switches are easy to take apart and clean... if badly pitted, can rotate the slider plate 180 degrees. It's best to re-furb them as soon as they become intermitant, as poor connection = heat = softens plastic meaning the copper connection pins sink into body...

A
Anthony Cutler

Hmm I'd have to dive inthe sience of it.
It has just been my experiance as a light operator (job that helped me through school)
Where with equal wattage newer halogen lights would blow fuses sooner than normal bulbs.

And only seen switches fail right after halogens had been fitted....
Onno K

I dunno about the 50% claim but I fitted Cibie H4s earlier this year and am thrilled with the results. So much better than sealed beam units and they seem to have the right domed profile for the Midget. Nice quality too and not too pricy from Demon Tweaks.
Matt1275Bucks

Here you go Onno.

Courtesy of Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescent_light_bulb

Power
Incandescent lamps are nearly pure resistive loads with a power factor of 1. This means the actual power consumed (in watts) and the apparent power (in volt-amperes) are equal. Incandescent light bulbs are usually marketed according to the electrical power consumed. This is measured in watts and depends mainly on the resistance of the filament, which in turn depends mainly on the filament's length, thickness, and material. For two bulbs of the same voltage, type, color, and clarity, the higher-powered bulb gives more light.

The table shows the approximate typical output, in lumens, of standard incandescent light bulbs at various powers. Note that the lumen values for "soft white" bulbs will generally be slightly lower than for standard bulbs at the same power, while clear bulbs will usually emit a slightly brighter light than correspondingly powered standard bulbs.[citation needed]
Current and resistance

The actual resistance of the filament is temperature-dependent. The cold resistance of tungsten-filament lamps is about 1/15 the hot-filament resistance when the lamp is operating. For example, a 100-watt, 120-volt lamp has a resistance of 144 ohms when lit, but the cold resistance is much lower (about 9.5 ohms).[34][69] Since incandescent lamps are resistive loads, simple phase-control triac dimmers can be used to control brightness. Electrical contacts may carry a "T" rating symbol indicating that they are designed to control circuits with the high inrush current characteristic of tungsten lamps. For a 100-watt, 120-volt general-service lamp, the current stabilizes in about 0.10 seconds, and the lamp reaches 90% of its full brightness after about 0.13 seconds.[70]
Lawrence Slater

The Cibie units are considered the best in terms of light output, and also have a curved face unlike the Hellas (next best - I've had, quite good), Narvas (also quite good, not far off Hellas in my opinion) and Autopals (pretty ordinary, with holes in the light pattern, but still much better than sealed beams). I've had some Ebay units in the past too, and I would say the set I had threw a similar quality of light to the Autopals I have in another car, possibly better, but I had a broken lense within a week of fitting them! The Autopal ones at least seem to have a thicker/stronger lense. The Autopal are also available with a park light bulb, which some of the others aren't.

I had great trouble finding the Cibies in Australia, and bought a bunch from the UK. This was cheaper than buying Hellas in Aus (and not much more than Narvas) but unfortunately several broke in transit. The company has been very good in communication, but hasn't yet provided me a refund or replaced goods (which was my preferred option, but they have been unable to get the freight company to pay despite the parcel being insured). So I have mixed thoughts on whether that's a good idea or not! If you find a good Cibie supplier in Australia then please let me know.
Andrew F

>>Hmm I'd have to dive inthe sience of it.

Hi Onno - A-level physics (at least when I took it in 1973...): when the wire is cold, the atoms are vibrating slowly and electrons find it easy to drift in a direction under an EMF; when wire hot, atoms whizz about (cue pic of Brian Cox staring towards the horizon, and loud music) and have many more collisions with the electrons, impeding their drift - appears to us as increased resistance.

Without this effect, it would be very difficult to regulate the brightness of an incandescent bulb - they'd be dull one moment, bright the next with v small changes of voltage... you'd need a current regulator or much tighter voltage regulation than control box or alt provides.

BTW - this effect is used in electric temp sensors (using wire much more sensitive to temp changes than std copper).

HTH

A
Anthony Cutler

I decided to go with the Cibie and Osram Nightbreaker Plus bulbs, which I have ordered from Demon Tweaks in UK, so hopefully they arrive unbroken. I spoke to the Australian importer and they only had the kits without the sidelight, hence the os order. I let you know when they arrive.
Steve
Steve Travis

I got my refund yesterday. I'd ordered mine through Larkspeed, and I have to say they were very good to deal with, great communication, despite the hassles with breakages. The box was pretty well packed, but looked like it had been through a hurricane when it arrived, I don't know what happened to it in transit, but it must have been very rough! 3 of the 7 lights I ordered (shipping was much cheaper per light for large quantities) were damaged on arrival, and though 1 of those 3 is still useable I suppose (has one edge scrunched), the other 2 are cracked and useless.
Andrew F

I ordered the lights on Monday night and they arrived Friday - amazing! I doubt that they would have arrived quicker had I ordered them locally in Australia. I had to cut a small section out of the holding bucket to fit the "side light", and fit female spades to the side light wires but all up took less than 30 minutes. I just got back from fixing the alignment and am very pleased with the overall result.
Thoroughly recommended.
Steve
Nb I had already installed relays, following a failed headlight dimmer switch on the stalk (which I replaced with an under dash toggle switch).
Steve Travis

This thread was discussed between 19/11/2011 and 27/11/2011

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