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MG Midget and Sprite General - Gagarin !

Tomorrow 12 April will be 50 years since the first manned space flight. Yuri was the brave pilot and rightly deserves all our praise.

Well done Yuri! Just a few weeks before the new model Midget was launched at Abingdon. :)
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Coincidence???
I think not!! :-)

Rick Bastedo

Robert,

Brave man indeed. Not sure if Yuri had a window that allowed him to see outside of his capsule, but if he did do you think he might have see anything like this?

http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/04/11/6451052-from-us-to-paris-in-2-minutes-with-northern-lights-on-the-side?GT1=43001

Larry C.
Larry C '69 Midget

Not sure he saw that mate. :)

However he certainly had a window. In fact the way he landed was to climb out of his capsule after re entry and deploy his parachute. Magnificent.
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Brave man indeed but he didn't climb out of the capsule. He was automatically ejected with the parachute opening by itself. He landed about ten minutes after the capsule. No one had any idea how a human would react to being in space so they either had things automated or controlled from the ground.
Martin Washington

I saw Gagarin when he visited Norway in the sixties. I was rather close, not more than 3-4 meters. Of course he made quite an impression on me. I remember him as quite small, with a very friendly appearance.

Tore
Tore

Hi Martin

Quite right. Strange that the soviet leaders should have lied about this part of the flight.

You wouldn't have wanted to have been under the spherical capsule when it landed...

The US pilots fought successfully for the right to control their craft - righly so.

AIUI Gagarin was secretly given an envelope, containing the key that would allow him some control, just before the door was bolted shut. This key was supposed to be transmitted to him in case of emergency, but it seemed someone had the forethought to take into acount that an emergency could mean the radio link wasn't working(!)

I'm going to enjoy all the 50-year celebrations of the milestones over the next few years, culminating on the 22nd July 2019 for the moon-landing.

A
Anthony Cutler

not strange at all that the Soviets lied about his return to earth, because there was an international prize at stake which included the stipulation that the astronauts be returned to earth IN their space capsule

The Russians found it expedient to return him the way they did, and then lie about it (including staging photos of him "exiting" his capsule on the ground), to "win" the prize.


Norm
Norm Kerr

The mystery of Gagarinīs last flight is also quite interesting.

http://english.ruvr.ru/2011/04/12/48760994.html

Tore
Tore

If you look around the site, you will find six chapters to the story.

Tore
Tore

Norm didn't know someone had offered a prize for the first space flight? what organisation was that?

I can't remember at the time what was exactly said about the flight in detail as I remember that the USSR were very secretive about most of their work.

They seemed to win all the competitions against Von Brawn and the german engineers except the big one getting to the moon.

During that period both the USSR and the USA took massive gambles to try and convince each other that they were better. Sadly it was the brave astronauts/cosmonauts that were to pay the price of these risks and we should remember them all from both sides.

I was extremely saddened by the investigations into the first shuttle explosion that suggested known dangers were ignored in an attempt to keep payloads on target! I am not sure safety should be compromised by budgets, the same way as Gagarin risked his life to ensure the USSR would get the first man in space.

It is ironic that to most (well me anyway) the greatest achievement in space was the rescue of the Appollo 13 craft, I would echo the words of Gene Kranz that this would become NASA's finest hour and in my opinion it did by a long way.
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

It is fascinating to study up on the Russian space program, as until the untimely death in 1966 of their key leader, Sergi Korolev, their safety record (and successful launches) was actually BETTER than ours.

After his death, their entire program went right down hill, rather directly.

It was initially the existence of our powerful bomber and submarine force that lead the Soviets to prioritize rocket delivery and get so far ahead of us in the beginning. Once you've got a rocket that can deliver a hydrogen bomb 1/2 way around the world, it is a relatively simple matter of putting a manned capsule on top of it (weight, and size wise).


The first Soviet space walk almost ended in disaster when the cosmonaut's suit had expanded in the vacuum of space and would not fit back inside of the door. They released the air from his suit, almost to the point of blacking out, until he could just squeeze back in (!).

The limitations of their lifting power meant that they could not carry up a 1/3 larger capsule for their planned moon shot development, so they took their existing 2 man capsule and took out the space suits to save room. This lead to the death of all three after the first test flight when the air pressure regulator valve failed during re-entry. This was especially bad because it was the first space shot shown anywhere near "live" to the Russian people, and too big of a tragedy to cover up.

It goes on and on. A fascinating history, and amazing works of engineering, and bravery, of a very great number of people. All in the name of national pride (a pretty motivating thing, sometimes).

and, ditto, what Bob said about Apollo 13!

Norm
Norm Kerr

Why are you highlighting the USSR failures? both sides were the same. Do you remember Appollo 1?
do you remeber 2 shuttles?

As I stated national pride of both sides severely comprosmised the crews safety it was almost akin to war in space.

Von Brawn must have revelled in it!

Some great engineering along the way however and some fantastic human stories
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

oops, sorry, I didn't mean to highlight their failures. Actually, I kind of undersold what had been my intention of that post, which is that their program was so much safer and more successful than the US until 1966, a fact that few Americans are aware of (propaganda, being what it is, on BOTH sides) :)

I dated a gal for 5 years, who was working on her PhD on Russian and Eastern European Studies at the U of M, and so we read tons of books about the Soviet space program, WWII, the KGB and on and on, and there were many surprises like that, that the American educational system (and media) had either pitched with much slant, or not at all, that I sort of lost count.

Norm
Norm Kerr

>>Norm didn't know someone had offered a prize for the first space flight? what organisation was that?

"The FAI rules in 1961 required that a pilot must land with the spacecraft to be considered an official spaceflight for the FAI record books. At the time, the Soviet Union insisted that Gagarin had landed with the Vostok; the government forced the cosmonaut to lie in press conferences, and the FAI certified the flight. The Soviet Union admitted in 1971 that Gagarin had ejected and landed separately from the Vostok descent module."

A

Anthony Cutler

Personally Ant I feel mass sympathy for all the Astronauts and cosmonauts for the total disregard for safety that both superpowers excercised in their pathetic efforts to appear better than the other.

I also find it sad today that pride is no longer the driver but profit. Based on the events of that last few years profit is put way ahead of safety although somehow the russians are playing a great hand and demonstrating their technical superiority or is it simple chance?
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

I agree to an extent... but regard the 'space race' as one of the brilliant achievements of the last century; better than fighting a war, at any rate. All those involved brought great kudos to their country.

I don't think saftey was completely dis-regarded, if for no other reason than (at least for the USA) astronoaut deaths were/are a PR disaster.

The Apollo-13 story (and film) exemplifies this.

Far more people die every year from falling off horses than have died due to the space-race. Very likely more people died trying to 'discover America'.

A couple of years ago I read a stack of books on the USA side of the space-race; the early years read like a bit of a pantomime, but from this they built a staggeringly inventive and disciplined organisation.

However, you need very challenging goals (and cash to match) to sustain this kind of venture, and once the bean-counters gained control, safety appeared to suffer.

One day I'll visit the Kennedy space centre so I can (hopefully!) touch and smell a Saturn-V...

A
Anthony Cutler

Also, the concept of safety, and the way society at large regarded it was very different 30, 40, 50 years ago. See previous discussions of F1 and motor racing during the same era. If it had been regulated as today I suspect that none of the manned space programme would have ever happened.

As an aside, I re,member watching the first moon landing on a TV set owned by an elderly lady in her 90s (don't ask!) Perhaps not surprisingly she was TOTALLY convinced it was a spoof set-up. And nothing ever dissuaded her that it was ever true. And you can see her point of view!
Guy

Ant fraid I am a space junkie and have been to Kennedy on a number of occassions. Seeing the Saturn 5 is certainly inspiring and how von Brawn ever envisaged such a machine is staggering!

The other exibits are also intriguing. I say a Gemini capsule that looked like something knocked up in a garden shed with a bit of alloy and a pop rivet gun. Get yourself there it is a once in a lifetime experience. You must be sure to drop the wife off at coco beach otherwise you will not be able to browse the exhibits in peace.

Guy the reason we live in such a nanny state is not governments it is "lawsuits"!

Get rid of lawyers and let people take personal responsibility once again and then we can begin to live a better life.

At present I am spending many hours assebling asbestos information and evidence to ensure in years to come if someone decides they have asbestosis and want to blame British Steel then hopefully I can provide the evidence to ensure we are found not guilty

Lawyers should be placed against a wall and shot!
Give us all our lives back please!
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Amen, Bob. I've not been to Kennedy, but Huntsville, Alabama is home to the US space program and is where von Braun was originally located. The US Space and Rocket Center is there and you can also see and touch a Saturn V as well as a space shuttle and other stuff. Part of the tour included a HUGE watertank where the astronauts practiced working in weightlessness. Should be included on a space junkie's to do list. It is also home to the North Alabama British Motoring Society!
Jack Orkin

It is on my list Jack
Thanks.
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Bob, yes I totally agree with you about lawsuits.
And a it is this and a "blame culture" that forces government at all levels to operate a nanny state mentality. This works right down to individuals in UK local government level where it is extremely difficult to get anyone to accept anything that goes beyond "what we have always done". I often had to just go ahead with things without approval and explain and justify later. But in my experience few were prepared to do that, whatever the logic might dictate.

Anyway, this has strayed from the much more interesting topic of space. Sorry!

Guy
Guy

"touch and smell a Saturn-V" - in theory, it would smell like diesel fuel, as that is what it burned (a whole LOT of diesel fuel, using liquid oxygen).

But in real life, I bet the smell is different (not as much quite like a diesel truck in practice). :)


The "moon landing was a spoof" argument makes me chuckle, and always falls apart around the point that NASA went back there 6 times. Kind of hard to explain what the value would have been of "re-telling a spoof" that many times (would simply increase the odds of it being found out, if it was!). But, then again, anyone 90 years old has the right to believe anything they want to (cars and telephones would test credulity enough).



Norm
Norm Kerr

Having had a couple of discussions with Brits who have got close to the Appollo program and also the Astronauts I find the spoof story intriguing

I agree with Norm why would you do the same spoof a number of times? no reason at all which to me proves at least some of the missions did land on the moon!

Secondly I understand on one landing a mirror was left on the moon that today gives us a reflection of a lazer beam for measuring the distance to the moon at any one time. Someone put it there!

However I think it could be that Armstrong and Aldrin (apollo 11) did not actually do the business. At the time the Yanks thought the Russians were very close and would again beat them to the big prize. With that in mind it would have been advantageous to stage this episode? Since the landing Armstrong has refused to talk publically about the affair?

All that said I believe there is one outstanding piece of information that convinces me that Apollo 11 went to the moon! Normally Aldrin ought to have been the first to step out of the LEM and would have been the first man to step onto the surface of the moon. However that was not the case and he was put aside and Armstrong became that person. I can tell you this has pi55ed off Buzz immensely. Bearing that in mind had it been a spoof the very upset Aldrin could make a fortune telling the story, but as yet he hasn't. Is he afraid of the KGB sorry the FBI or is there no story to tell?

Greatstuff
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Bob M T,space junkie eh.Say after me---Wernher von BraUn.As regards space casualties we in the UK live with an average of 10 a day killed on our roads,and nobody seems to utter a peep.So how's that for a death rate?

I do remember, that very evening, in a pub in Liverpool when the Space Shuutle blew up someone piping up" Need Another Seven Astronauts".Some quick,sick sods there.

OK,quiz for tonight.What is the connection between an Armstrong Whitworth Apollo and Consolidated Coronado?
Answersd on a Ģ50 note to a secret address please.
M Blencowe

My little tale about this lady who thought it was a spoof was not meant to relate in any way to the ridiculous conspiracy theories, etc that abound in certain societies about any science-based facts.

It was just that one could well understand how absolutely unbelievable the whole moon landing thing would be to someone born in the 1870's. It really would be stretching one's belief in reality!
Guy

".What is the connection between an Armstrong Whitworth Apollo and Consolidated Coronado?"
both had 4 engines - the inner pair had 4-bladed props and the outer pair had 3-bladed props, quite unusual.
David Smith

Gawd knows what happened to my post of yesterday.Yep,David,quite right.A chocolate mouse may be winging it's way to you sometime,honest.
M Blencowe

Actually I missed the true significance of April 12th it was also the anniversay of the first shuttle orbit by Columbia on April 12, 1981

That was a coincidence wasn't it?
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

This thread was discussed between 11/04/2011 and 17/04/2011

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