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MG Midget and Sprite General - calling Ian Webb

Ian I have not been able to source the hand brake cylinder you told me about. Please can you let me know which one you have bought please.

Sorry for boring others but I don't have Ian's email address.

I have designed mine to hide on the tunnel with an arm rest built over the top :)
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Bob

We used 11B5510. All cars have used the original handbrake handle still connected to the cable for normal use and an easily inserted link to operate the hydraulic.

Two cars (including our UK Midget) have the cylinder in the rear axle cavity next to the tunnel. The other couldn't fit there as that's where its battery has been shifted to, so we fitted it to the tunnel as per the photo. The whole assembly fits within the profile of the handle when viewed from above, apart from the lower part of the two brake pipes which are almost on the floor and well clear of the seat. The tunnel carpet drops neatly over it covering it all.

Paul Walbran

And another of the assembly before it went on to the car. The hydraulic link is activated by a pin through the two "ears" above the main handle fulcrum - the inner one (with the captive nut) is connected to the cylinder pushrod at the bottom and idles round the fulcrum until locked to the other "ear" which is a tag welded to the handle.

Paul Walbran

That looks pretty good Paul, just may reconsider.

The cylinder Ian has bought is cheaper than the Healy one I think?
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Yes, as I recall the one Ian had was similar in spec to the Healey one but cheaper. But for us the Healey one was one which we stock, so easily to hand to eyeball and then use.

Here's a dismantled view of the components.

Paul Walbran

Interesting. Prey tell it's use.:) Does it operate on whole brake system?
Lawrence Slater

Only the rear of course ... for rear end steering :-)
Paul Walbran

Hi Lawrence

In the MGCC we tend to use our cars for sporting events as well as parking in pub yards or social drives.

So if you want to race or hill climb then you spend your money and get on with it. However it is possible to do other sporting events without the need for lots of money and lots of regulation. We also do autotests and autosolos.

Before I started racing I used to autotest most months but stopped many years ago when racing became my life. Having stopped that I spent a few years doing sod all but was tempted back in to local motorsport by the MGCC organising Autosolos.

Now with the bug back I need to modify my car to compete at the highest level. To do that locking the rear wheels is a must and this then allows donuts and other quick rotational techniques.

So to make it easy to lock the rear wheels a hydraulic handbrake can ease things somewhat. It is the hydraulic handbrake we are discussing.

Here is an example

http://is.gd/rM8imC

Will makes it look so easy
http://is.gd/YEqoc9
:)

Thats certainly food for thought mate
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Ah so now I know. Fantastic.

Expensive on the tyres no doubt lol.

Lawrence Slater

But great enjoyment value for money (cost of tyre wear is less than the entry fee for more "serious" motorsport) ... and a good way of stopping them from getting too old :-)

Here's one of our efforts, an annual event with two identical courses next to each other, a different team on each course. Two drivers per team, a baton chnage between and first team home the winner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YQ8d1kacQ4
Paul Walbran

Bob
As we discussed last month at the Aldon day I purchased the following parts fom Rally Design 01227 792792:

Master Cylinder Non Integral 0.625" Rally Design part no RD3614 (Wilwood part no 260-6087) @£26.50

Clevis Pin Assembly part no G1312 @£3.40

Reducer Union 7/16x20 UNF part no RD3623 @ £1.50

All plus the dreaded VAT.

The parts can be viewed at www.rallydesign.co.uk or a technical drawing at http://www.wilwood.com/MasterCylinders/MasterCylinderProd.aspx?itemno=260-6087

I have some photos of my installation which I will post later, but its exactly the same as Paul's in principle.......a small lever is welded to be the bottom of the handbrake lever itself, and that operates the master cylinder which is bolted to the side of the transmission tunnel via a bracket.

Ian


Ian Webb '73 GAN5

Bob
Photos of my handbrake mods as promised..

Ian Webb '73 GAN5

Thanks Ian I am afraid I did not write down the information you gave me and my memory is that of a 60 year old geriatric!
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

And more

Ian Webb '73 GAN5

More

Ian Webb '73 GAN5

More....note that these photos were taken at the mock up stage...the fulcrum lever was fully welded later on ! The photos of the lever installed were taken on a trans tunnel that i have separated from a bodyshell.
Ian

Ian Webb '73 GAN5

Bob
I hope the piccies make it clearer.

My set up is very similar to Paul's ... but mine is less sophisticated without the luxury of the additional two levers at the top through which (on Paul's) I assume you insert a bolt or pin to lock the two together, I only envisage disconnecting mine once a year at MOT time, which is not too difficult anyway. The standard handbrake cable remains untouched & functioning as normal.
You might need to move the pasenger seat over an inch, it will depend on the type of seat.
I ended up using the upper hole for the lever as you need very little handbrake movement to lock the rear wheels.You can see that Paul's is very short also.
Ian
Ian Webb '73 GAN5

Well that is it mate what bore did you buy and obviously you are suggesting very little effort is needed to do the job?
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Ian

Yes, you are right in assuming that. Our WoF is wtice a year here, plus our driveway is 1 in 2.5 at its steepest so I don't want to risk pressure bleed!

I noticed the two holes, and my guess was that you'd be using the upper one - I think ours may have ended up even shorter. The hydraulic takes up almost instantly, it needs very little fluid displacement on those rear brake cylinders when the shoes are adjusted right so I went for the extra mechanical advantage.

Bob

Simple in principle but like many one-off things it can take a bit of time while you fiddle around and get the alignments just right.
Paul Walbran

Bob,
The bore is 0.625, actually its the smallest Willwood make IIRC
In the end I will probably change the orientation of the cylinder and mount with the inlet/outlet at the top .......because its a devil to bleed out and I cannot get it perfect, I assume that a small air bubble is remaining in the upper front corner of the m/cyl. I mounted the cyl upside down in an effort to make the pipework neater/and more hidden.
Another point is that you need to make the mounting bracket reasonably stiff, my aluminium one in the photo flexes quite a lot, I dont think it would break for years but the flex puts the pushrod out of alignment (the bracket you see has some additional braces and still flexes)

Paul; yes I use the upper hole, its just as you say...it locks the wheels almost instantly ! I will grind off the lower when the m/cyl is next removed for turning it up the 'normal' way as mentioned above.

I have a photo of the final installation in the car ....but I am having trouble downloading it from my old digital camera, will keep trying.


Ian

Ian Webb '73 GAN5

Paul
I have been looking at your photos again...yours is a very neat design....I might crib your idea of the loose fulcrum if I make a mk2 version.

I asume that you simply had the shorten the shaft housing tube to allow for the thickness of the fulcrum plate with the captive nut ? It must also space out the lever from the tunnel by same thickness (4/5 mm or so) which would actually be quite useful.

Is the extra small plate in the ratchet locking mechanism part of a flyoff handbrake mod ? Just curiosity...as I am not a fan of f/off handbrakes.

Ian
Ian Webb '73 GAN5

Ian

Yes, we did have to shorten the shaft housing by the thickness of the fulcrum plate, and yes it's a flyoff handbrake mod. All our cars have flyoff, so thre's no worry about confusion going from one to the other.

Regarding the alloy bracket flexing, I had the same concern. If you look at the bracket I made you will see my solution - at the left hand end (in the photo) you will see a small strap riveted on. This fills the gap between the cylinder and the bracket, in fact pre-loads the cylinder a little, thus bracing any deflection on the front end of the bracket. I also made the bracket wide enough at that point to spread the load across a reasonable area of tunnel.

Unseen is a back-up stop to prevent the piston from being popped past the circlip by line pressure when the footbrake is applied and the hydraulic hanbrake sytem is floating free in "MoT mode". Just in case red mist gets stronger than the circlip!

I liked the way you had done your cylinder as I had a battle getting the pipes snugged in out of the way, but I can see the point about it being difficult to bleed.
Paul Walbran

Paul
Your simple solution for reducing the flex of the mounting bracket should sort out mine also ...its basically just a packer between the cylinder and the bracket (efectively the tunnel itself) with a little pre load ??

I also initially had concerns about the circlip being popped out of its groove under footbrake line pressure , but I feel its held safely in position on my 'permanently' connected push rod, with your disconnected mode it would remain a concern with me, so I can understand why you fitted an additional stop.
In fact I was wondering what was happening to your pushrod when it was in disconnected mode as they do get pressurized...... and when there is a little air remaining in my system the footbrake tensions up the handbrake a little which leads me to conclude that the air pocket is remaining in the handbrake cyl not elsewhere in the system.

BOB: I used the original front to rear steel pipe (still in good condition after almost 40yrs)and brought that in through the handbrake aperture to the supply port of the hand brake cylinder and then made up a new pipe from the outlet port to go back into the tunnel and follow more or less the original route to the rear flexi hose. Utilising the original front to rear pipe made the job much simpler for me as I didnt need all new pipe work.
Ian



Ian Webb '73 GAN5

Forgive my ignorance,

How/where is this mod linked in to the hydraulic system?
Lawrence Slater

Lawrence,
I guess the handbrake cylinder is in effect in series with the hydraulic pipe to the rear wheels. Under normal braking the cylinder is just part of the same fluid system. But when operating the handbrake (when it is "activated") it only pressurises the pipework from there rearwards so there must be a one way valve in the line forwards of the cylinder. But not sure then how the brakes would release under normal use?

I have never seen one of these before so I am only guessing! But Ian's version looks like a nicely thought out and engineered system - a nicely put together thing like that is truly a work of art.
Guy

The hydraulic handbrake has been around for a long time, it is used extensively in rallying to get around tight corners by locking the rear wheels.

Here we are simply discussing the best arrangement for a Spridget and the cheapest solution

The way it works is very simple

The brake line to the rear wheels is cut and a master cylinder is inserted. The reservoir connection of the cylinder is used to take the brake pressure from the front. The exit of the cylinder is connected to the rear wheel cylinders.

Thus in normal use when the footbrake is applied pressure comes along the front pipe and enters the new cylinder at the top. This then pressurizes the cylinder and so pressurizes the rear brakes as normal. The pressure is kept within the cylinder because of the seal at the front.

Now if you operate the actuation rod of the new cylinder you push the piston which covers the small hole in the cylinder roof (normally this is the reservoir connection) which blanks off the front pipe and applies pressure SOLELY to the rear thus locking the rear wheel by hydraulic pressure. When this is released then the piston clears the normal vent hole and allows any residual pressure to vent to the front master cylinder as normal.

I hope that was clear.
Bob Turbo Midget England

Its just as Bob says. Nothing complicated really; a simple single line master cylinder is plumbed into the existing front to rear brake pipe.
The brake pipe from the engine bay that normally runs down the inside of the transmission tunnel is carefully brought out through one corner of the hand brake lever hole and fed into the non pressurised master cyl inlet port where a fluid resevoir normally sits, and then a new pipe is introduced which is fed from the high pressure outlet on the master cyl, that new pipe runs back into the tunnel through the same hole and runs to the rear flexi pipe in the normal way.
Its a bit fiddly to do, the cost for me was only about £40, making the bracket myself and I didnt have to pay for the welding either. I was warned they can be tricky to bleed and that has been the case, although perseverance pays in the end !
The point of it is to give a handbrake that will consistantly lock the rear wheels whatever the road surface and with very little input/effort, its very useful for steering the rear end of the car as Paul says.
For me its all part of slowly improving my car for Autosolos. I find that many small improvements can make a noticeable difference.
Ian

Ian Webb '73 GAN5

That's very interesting, thanks.

I noticed in one of the earlier posts, that the hydraulic mod, is swapped back to cable for MOT purposes.

For road use, although the cable has served me pretty well, it does need occasional maintainance/adjustment.

Is this hydraulic mod illegal for road use?

It seems like a worthwhile mod for the road.

Lawrence Slater

Lawrence
The standard mechanical cable is kept functoning all the time as normal, but the when the hydraulic handbrake is used it funtions before or quicker than the mechanical part......so at MOT time you need to disconnect the hydraulic part in order to demonstrate that the mechanical cable is funtioning efectively, at least if you want a clear conscience you should in my opinion.
Actually the MOT tester probably would not spot the the hydraulic part on my car, unless I pointed it out to him. Of course he might think the handbrake rather good for an old car and start looking around if he was on the ball. But my MOT garage are one of the sensible ones so I tell them what is fitted. I always have a discussion with the MOT man about Bob's favourite subject front wheel brgs ! Luckily my MOT man runs pre-war Singer cars and a TR2 for his hobby so no problem with very slightly wobbly front wheeels.
Please don't hesitate to ask if you hve more questions.
Ian
Ian Webb '73 GAN5

Nice one Ian :)

I think the MOT demands that the secondry brake should be independant of the primary. Or something of such nature.

During the MOT the handbrake is operated a number of times to allow the tester to see the operation from under the car. He would obviously want to see the cable take the strain! :)
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Lawrence

The risk of using a hydraulic handbrake as a parking brake is that the pressure in the line over a long period of time will cause bleed-back past seals. The same sort of risk as a hydraulic jack. Doesn't usually happen, but we all use axle stands just in case. Ditto a mechanical linkage is preferred for a parking brake, especially if you live in a hilly area like me.

I have experienced it once, we put the hydraulic handbrake link in for an event the following day and left the car with the brake on and the car in gear. In the morning there was no pressure on the handbrake, the car was relying solely on being in gear (and being parked at the bottom of the hill on our driveway rather than the top!)
Paul Walbran

Yup ok, I can see why the cable is still used then. Thanks.
Lawrence Slater

hi folks,

the handbrake setups look brilliant, the drum brakes have such a good hydraulic handbrake when fitted, as for mot, i always had cables adjusted up too, (actually had to have cable prfessionally shortened) that way leaving the hydraulic in for mot as the cable was moving until tight. the mot inspector will not believe how good it is! my car used to jump out of rollers during brake test. It is nearly impossible to drive a midget precisely without a good handbrake.

good luck with the fitment, look forward to seeing you all this summer all being well.

regards
Will
WDT Corry

Hi Will

I wish!

Stay at home year I think
Paul Walbran

Hi Will nice to hear from you :)

Just today received the MGCC Lincolnshire centre calender. Flippin heck must be 100 events solely in Lincs, now that will keep me busy.

Anyway the interesting ones to this thread are

Practice Autotest
21st April

Spring Autotest
13th May

Autosolo
16th June

Autumn Autotest
16th september

And out of interest a couple of great historical days at the heritage museum at East Kirkby besides the ever popular Lancaster I think there is a taxi ride in a Dakota!! Marvelous heritage!!

Oh and a BRM day is planned for 14th October now that will be one not to miss.

Sure we will see Ian but would love to see you again Will, oh and the old man! LOL are you going to Silverstone international?
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Paul,
you will be missed!

Bob,
It would be great to come back over for the autosolo again. such a fun crowd, club and great venue. The BRM day has certainly got my attention solely for the noise! The plan currently is both dad and I will be at Silverstone, (i really need to get started on his midget!) there will hopefully be atleast one team there from Ulster. How would you feel about new test diagrams and a little bit of reversing? I will probably start a thread for this but in this close knit group of friends here it will be a good start before putting it out there for everyone to decide. I would love for our competition secretary to do some fun tests. (he is brilliant at setting them up, giving you enough room to get speed for manouvres and also allowing people to just drive round too).

its food for thought, but i would love to see the cali cup back to where it used to be! there are a lot more ideas, that i will put in a thread once i have spoken to a few more people.

Regards
Will
WDT Corry

Hi Will...... good to hear from you.

The short run you gave me in your car at Silverstone motivated me to get my act together and get my hyd handbrake made, that and seeing a set up that liked. I saw the same thing as I have done on of your Northern Ireland cars but I cant remember exactly whose car it was. I went down this route specificaly because I didnt want to fit a separate lever. I am very happy with the result.

I agree that the Cali Cup could do with some fresh tests, but the apparently reversing isnt popular with the older cars. How about it being run as an Autosolo ?? Another club runs an exellent Autosolo twice a year in the same car park.
It will be great to see you and your father next year.

Ian
Ian Webb '73 GAN5

Technically speaking - it already is an autosolo coz there's no reversing!!!!

However, I believe that, if the tests were fully laid out and there was a bigger area, then it would be possible to have some limited reversing, which could be done even in the big old cars - after all, they used to do it in them, so I can't see it being too major to do it again. Certainly, something like the "angel" test, where they only have to reverse in a straight line, should present no problems.

Doesn't Oxford use the other car park on the other side for their Autosolo? I think that perhaps that one is a bit bigger, but am more than willing to be proved wrong on that since it doesn't matter to me one way or another :P!

It was lovely to meet you at Silverstone Paul, having missed you at Midget50, and I look forward to having the opportunity again sometime - but it's a tad fair really to come every year I suppose ;)
rachmacb

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux8SJhQDhE0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEnSyUwqXjQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJjQssfgXgk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g7YYFqI5d4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GQFalX8a-E

enjoy ;)
PeterJMoore

Sadly, can't do it every year, esecially when the guy who covers for me in the business decides it's his turn to go!

I wouldn't be surprised if one or two of the family are there though. Matt has just started a PhD in Munich, and Andrew might be joining him there doing post-doc research. Relatively speaking, only a stone's throw away. And seing as I'll have their Midgets to play with while they are gone, I'm sure they'll be wanting to even the score adn use our UK one!
Paul Walbran

It has been a long time since I last competed in the Cali cup, 1994 I think was my last year :). Clive (Pauls best friend )was the organiser at that time and may still be for all I know! :)

At that time the Calicup autotests were always the same tests each year, is that still the case?

I suspect the MGCC would be reluctant to stop the Calicup in favour of an Autosolo but I suspect with the right approach perhaps an autosolo might be included in the weekend of events.

The one issue is that this years MGLive will only be a Saturday and Sunday event.

We have already booked our accomodation at the Best Western in Buckingham, so see you at Silverstone Will.

The BRM day will be a repeat of what we did a number of years ago in 1999. At that time the roads in Bourne were closed in celebration of the birth of Raymond Mays 100 years previously, 65 years of the ERA and 50 years of BRM. Many former BRM F1 cars were let loose on the streets driven by drivers or the celebrities who owned them, Nick Mason to name but one. :)

However 2012 will be the 50th anniversary of BRM winning the constructors championship in 1962 mainly due to the efforts of the late great Graham Hill. Again the cars will be out on the streets and will be a real treat for racing fans.

The MGCC Lincolnshire Centre have very close ties with Bourne and BRM so we will be helping with marshalling for the event. I do hope those of you with an interest in the heritage of British motorsport will come along and have an enjoyable day, wearing your ear muffs :)
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

"Matt has just started a PhD in Munich, and Andrew might be joining him"


Paul I dont want to shatter the high view you have of your sons but the only reason they go to Munich isnt to study... but for the october beerfestival!!!!
Beer, beer, hot women and even more beer!!
Now I mention it I think you should go too, tell your wife its to support the boys in their study. :)

Munich is only 4 hours drive away from the Nurnburg Ring isnt it? ;)
Arie de Best

Arie

Exaclty, Beer and the 'ring. I know that, they know that ... and Matt has been given a scholarship for his PhD to pay his living expenses while he flits off and plays in your backyard. I call that double dipping. And I'm jealous. So yes, I'll have to visit. But it won't be alone, Bronwyn wouldn't miss the fun either! But not this coming year, we won't have got over the novelty of the peace & quiet!

Bob/Will/Ian

It would be good to get more reversing in the autotests, I did suggest it to Clive few years back (he finished organising in 2005) but as Ian says they are not keen because of the older cars. We have the same issue here but instead of older cars it's less experienced competitors. In response we have evolved a number of reverse tests which strike a middle ground - give we nutters something to get into and fling the car around a bit, but not to arduous for newcomers or those worried about their gearboxes.

I think an autosolo would be great and worth promoting, but not for the Cali Cup which has a lot of history behind it.
Paul Walbran

Bob,
The BRM day sounds great. Can you remind us all a bit nearer the time!
Matt1275Bucks

hi folks,

Ian, the car i showed you was Mike and Emma Reids little red midget. Glad you liked my car, will have to let you have a proper run in it, in anger, it is going really well now with even more ground clearance.

cali-cup, I believe it needs a few reverses and as Paul has suggested make them easy to perform in a normal car or indeed and older larger car, do these cars or beginners need to be allowed to just drive these parts? allowing everyone else to be challenged? I dont like reversing but it gives you a chance to learn and begin to challenge yourself, and that to me is what the cali cup is all about, challenging the drivers and cars. At home, we have beginners that cant even pull the handbrake, so choose to drive through the tests and they are even doing the reversing so I think it would be mega to get it back (literally)

Autosolo, I think it would be a fabulous day out if the cali cup was left as it stands and maybe have the autosolo run in the afternoon on saturday in the same car park, or have two or three of the tests during the cali cup joined together for a monster test run once at the end? we do that a lot, where we will join the two test together for 2 runs at the end, normally means about 2-3 minutes of flat out driving which is mega.

be great to see you all again, at the minute dad and I are planning on coming over for the autosolo. There might be a few of us, Ian try A539's on the back of your car (i know we had a fools pardon last year). Bob it will be great craic to catch up again, get the boost turned up!

Will
WDT Corry

Will
Thanks its always good to know which car I saw this set up on.

What have you done to achieve more ground clearance ? ......have you raised it up or put the exhaust in a tunnel which I think you mentioned before ?

On the subject of Silverstone; Cali cup in the morning and a Solo in the afternonn might work ok. The reason I think about changing the Cali Cup is that with the exception of NI in the rest of the UK autotests just arnt that popular anymore...there are some for sure but nationaly its become a bit to specialised for the average guy.

Ian
Ian Webb '73 GAN5

Paul - look forward to seeing your sons - assuming they can make it over :)

I think that a couple of points really need to be made here - as it WILL be things that are raised in objection to any changes I suspect!

Last year, the marshalls and organisers of the Cali Cup were requesting help from competitors to help to gather in the cones afterwards - and yet - for at least the second year, no-one helped at all, and it was left to a handful of people to do. Whilst certainly this year I was organising something else in the afternoon, I do think that it's UP TO US to put something back into this after all the work that it takes to organise the competition for us to take part in.

One other thing that perhaps needs to be said (again!) is that, whilst it was my first Cali Cup, I do know that the older cars have, in the past, undertaken tests which include reversing - so I'm not too sure why they are being put forward as an excuse to use the same ones year in and year out. Indeed, in the older days, I've been shown the tests used, and there were way more, and really quite interesting one.

As for the average person (not just men!!!), I think that there are probably two reasons for this:

One is lack of knowledge of "What is an autotest?" In which case, bringing it up to the central arena would be a very good idea - if only for the final test, and then a two-car showdown - which would hopefully get the interest of the people - and encourage them to enter.

Sadly, the other reason is the same as is hitting everything else at the moment - the economy and price of petrol. With the general squeeze on family finances, then, fun activities are certainly suffering, and motorsport is doubly hit. Whilst everyone is doing their best to keep entry fees down, they are inevitably a factor, which, added to the petrol, means that many families have to seriously consider what direction their money goes.

Having said all that, I am still very much behind the idea of bringing in some new tests (WITH reversing to allow the Cali Cup to be called an autotest, under the MSA Rules!!!), and I am sure that many people will be enthusiastic about it - change IS good ;)
rachmacb

Will

That autosolo idea sounds brilliant :-)

Reversing ... can be fun. It all depends how you configure it. We put a lot of thought in to making reverse tests flow and be more enjoyable rather than simply multiple stop-start. They feel better to drive and aren't so hard on gearboxes.
Paul Walbran

Rach
The Cali cup is already an autotest under the MSA rules; its what is known as all forwards autotest, it is not an autosolo as the rest of the country run them (except for Lincolnshire which use their own rules!)
You should go and try an autosolo outside the MGCC.... in all other autosolo all competitors have to marshal and pack up or they get disqualified.

As Paul says reversing has to be given a lot of thought to be acceptable to all ages of cars. As you say Rach older cars in the past have done the reversing on autotests , but you have to ask yourself WHY they arnt doing it now ? I conclude its because the cars are getting older year on year with all that many people are not prepared to use them so hard as they used to.
As I see it you and Will arnt proposing change as such, just trying to revert to what we had before.....which many people arnt interested in, as history has shown.
I would like to see some form of driving test that all the cars from all ages in the MGCC might want to compete in, the last thing I want to see is a Midget formula autotest.
Ian
Ian Webb '73 GAN5

LOL that sounds about right ...! I wasn't aware of that you could have an "all forwards test" so thanks for clearing that up - makes more options available, especially when opening up for more people to come along and join in at more local levels - although, I think that around here they tend to call them "Gymkhanas" or other such names to distinguish them.

It's not yet been announced, but, watch this space (well, ok, perhaps not quite THIS space, but, you get the idea ...) for next years' Anglia calendar for your other comment ;) You're right, I do not agree with just competing horses within their own breed, so, why should we just do it with cars too ...!

From what Will and I have discussed, it's kind of somewhere between what was before and what is now, perhaps with the main suggestion being a change of tests every year, rather than the same ones, which would be, yes, going back to what was before. Also, to have the final test held in the main arena, rather than down in the car park - to get more spectators and make it more included in the whole MGLive experience - at the moment, it's a bit like it's down out of sight and out of mind.

I especially like this idea as it means that everyone will see that ALL cars, not just Midgets, are doing it - and I would totally agree with you that it's great seeing them all incorporated. Whilst I much prefer the Midget, I have also thoroughly enjoyed Autotesting a BV8 and, even more so, an MGA (however much my shoulders ached the next day!!!!!!!)

One thing I did suggest directly to Will, and it perhaps needs saying here, is that, perhaps the best solution is to have it as "however it comes" next year, and to have a meeting with ALL the competitors and marshalls afterwards, to discuss all the possible options - it's always very very hard to work out what people are trying to say as ever in written form. Don't know whether you would agree with that Ian?
rachmacb

Bob
As promised ages ago here are three photos of my completed installation, I had to use another camera in the end.


Rach, a meeting after the CC as you suggest is a good idea, but it only includes those already doing the event, we really have to get to the people not attending the CC. I like the idea of having the final test in the centre area but have doubts about the practicality of it, I hate to be negative as its a good idea.

Before we go to far down this road, I have a reservation about this discussion ......we cannot ignore the organising team's views we need to get them on board or they might walk away from the event, thats not good for anyone.

Ian

Ian Webb '73 GAN5

Another for Bob.

The pipe running across the bottom of the picture is a fuel pipe nothing to do with the handbrake.

Ian

Ian Webb '73 GAN5

Bob
Finally a birds eye view...but you already saw this view.
Ian

Ian Webb '73 GAN5

Ian - that's exactly why I have suggested a meeting - including everyone - drivers, marshalls etc as that's the only way forward with any changes :)
rachmacb

Ian, the install in your car is first class and very much in keeping with how you turn your car out. As for the ground clearnace i went a bit mad! the anti-roll bar is above the chassis legs now, the same way as most race cars have. this alone would have removed most of the clearance issues on a rally. Ofcourse i wetnfor it 100% and have now got the entire exhaust system up to floor height. now I have completely flat floors. car is still at the same ride height you last saw it but pete and I have not even hit the sumpguard yet on rallies. it really is remarkable. you will enjoy seeing the set up. I will try and post pics, or even easier, send me your email.

cali-cup,
as paul ahs said, there are ways to set out tests that allow a smooth selction of reverse and not bangin gears on and off lines. i would suggest ot the organising committee that they introduce it this year and see what people think. I would alos put forward that the Ulster centre competition secretary draws a few tests and they select from those drawing, he is really fabulous at drawing fun, flowing tests and thats what its all about. its exciting times as when was the last time the cali cup got talked about? the final test in the arena is a must! we need to bring it back to the fore and put it underneath peoples noses again and with everyone from modern mg Zr's to triple M cars giving it a whirl around the tests it would hoepfully encourage folks to try their hand at it. and if not the auto testing, then certainly an auto solo!
WDT Corry

I have a lot of old autotest layouts from MGCC events in the 80s and early 90s (including some California Cup) and would be happy to supply copies if wanted...
David Smith

David - that would be awesome - and I've got a pile from a bit later that Bruce lent me to practise with - perhaps it would be really useful to have a collection of Cali Cup ones so that we can see how the have developed and what can and can't be done now to include as many cars as possible :)

There really were some interesting and exciting ones back then - although my poor old stallion isn't so sure when I used him to practise on!!!!!!! He wasn't too keen on reverse either <grin>
rachmacb

David, that is a great idea, as with all things this is to help the SW centre who have kept the whole thing alive over the years. I in no way want to undermine their efforts, just offer help, even if thats laying out the pylopns to help in the morning!

one of the notes taken from Ian and Rach, is that it should be forced that you help to tidy up everything at the end, almost like a signature on your time card signing off that you have helped. it would only take up 10 minutes at the end to do it betwen all of us. obviously there will be some exceptions who cant lift cones but they can no doubt find something to do. this would be more like autosolo rules where competitors marshall for part of the day. many hands make light work!
WDT Corry

Will
Please post some photos of how you have changed the exhaust for ground clearance, I'm curious to see what you did there....I never got it right on my past rally cars. Here is a photo of my above chassis ARB, IMO the factory should have fitted it up there in the first place.

I like the idea of a sign off signature at the end of an event, so long as you have helped somewhere during the day you get it, otherwise you dont figure in the official results.

Ian

Ian Webb '73 GAN5

in 1980 there were over 140 entries for the Cali Cup! including 49 in class C (mostly Midgets) and a certain I Webb got a 1st class award. Here's some layouts from '82, the RH page is interesting in that you were told what to do but chose your own route... happy days.

David Smith

Page 46 and 47 of this http://www.motorsport.org.nz/assets/Documents/CS-Handbook-2009-Edition.pdf are some of the tests we drew up in Auckland Centre which were later adopted my NZ motorsport for their championships. We have about 8 pages of 4 tests each as I recall, drawn up in a bar on a natter night :-).

And I'm all for getting people to chip in and help too.
Paul Walbran

David
I (we) have been at this way too long !!!
1980 a distant memory...here is a photo of my first Cali Cup in 1978
Could you photo copy me the results, I have lost copies of older results during various house moves over the years.

Paul, some good tests there I particularly like the idea of giving them names.....it appears to make them more fun some how.
Ian


Ian Webb '73 GAN5

Gosh Ian - never really thought of you as being that old - you always seem way younger :)

I like the idea of giving them names as well - it kinda helps pass the time, and also to try and remember them.

When did the choose your line ones finish - I remember Bruce mentioning that they were still going when he did his first few. They are also good fun in show jumping, and, again, attract people to watch as there's something different going on.

rachmacb

will do Ian, it'll be in Jan now; can you email me an address midget1380 at NObtinternetSPAM dotcom
David Smith

Rach
I was younger then ........ 20 yrs old to be exact in summer of 78, I remember the good bits well, selective memory is very usefull sometimes, and improves with age !

David, thanks I will drop you an email, theres no hurry of course.

Happy Christmas to everyone in BBS land .....off down the pub shortly to get in some Christmas spirit.

Ian
Ian Webb '73 GAN5

LOL cool - and - here's to next year being full of excellent memories to hang onto too :)

I'm slowly getting over amnesia - and, it's so good to have good memories come back, so I guess ...

Anyways have a fantastic Christmas and here's to a great New Year all :)
rachmacb

Ian, its a pretty extreme way to go in regards to the exhaust. the manifold is shortened in height, bringing the collector pipe up about 75mm, the passenger floor has been raised to the same height as the top of the gearbox cross member. the silencer now sits under passenger feet diagonally, the pipe now exits the silencer and runs parallel with the sill in its own tunnel (beside passenger seat) then out through the sill infront of the beginning of the rear wheel arch. pics will make this all clear but i dont have any on this computer. if you now look under my car, the only thing you see is the floors! it has been an amazing improvement, however i did both roll bar and exhaust at the same time, if i had the roll bar moved first, i may not have moved the exhaust!

your roll bar fitment is first class, and the picture of you is brilliant! trying hard, even then!!

Dave and Paul, the diagrams are great. I will have to get on the ball once christmas is past and get some of ours scanned and on here. I love the Cali cup, decide your own route. That would be tricky. this is great folks we are all excited about it, and that means good things will happen. now if we can get more people out we will be doing great!

merry christmas to all
Will

WDT Corry

Will, jeesus you got radical with the exhaust !!!
I can understand it ok from the description, but pictures would still be good when u can. If I have got it right the exhaust is all enclosed until it exits, it must be all getting a bit hot in there ?

I suppose with underside very clean now you could actually run the car slightly lower, say half an inch which might usefully let the front suspension work more in the middle of its (limited) travel and give you a bit more bump movement. In the end you might want to bin the front susp altogether I would think.
Ian
Ian Webb '73 GAN5

Ian,

the floor is raised under passengers feet, so silencer is open to the road underneath, the pipe is also open to road, (this peice runs in a mouses hole type tunnel down the side of passenger seat. does your phone accept mms messages? send me a text and i will send some to you while you are down the pub! 07974 224191 you will love it. i hardly ever have the roof up but when it is, it is cosy in there for sure, luckily pete loves to be warm so no complaints as yet. We did do a night navigation rally in t-shirts in october! (roof up)

Will
WDT Corry

Back at last.

Sorry for appearing ignorant this last week but we went to Tenerife for Xmas and have just returned home. Carol threatened to divorse me if I took my laptop so had to suffer do nothing for a week :)

Anyway some good comments.

I think it would be a brave man to fiddle too much with the calicup. The organisers do a great job each year and I often think leave well alone.

Thinking back maybe 20 years autotesting in the MGCC was very much supported. The Calicup (BMC trophy) saw teams of Zed Magnettes, vintage, triple M Midgets, FWD, modern spridgets, to name a few plus the Calicup itself saw numerous centre teams all trying to compete at the highest standards. I know you are pretty good Will but the Tyne Tees lads were not bad back then with superb performances by non other than Dave Farrar. (where is he now?) (on a boat I believe). Autotesting in the centres was strong with the Lincolnshire centre getting well over 50 entries each year to compete in the Tour of Lincs, which was almost a special stage rally (my all time favourite event I must admit)

Back then the Calicup was sited at Abbey which was well out of the way by todays standards without too much problem. Many will remember it was then moved to club straight when the racers began using the longer circuit. Now they are on view at the main gate not sure where they could be put to get more attention?

Sadly over the years this has diminsished for a whole host of reasons.

Not sure I could even try to restore the interest so will leave that to those who have done so well these last few years in at least keeping the event healthy.

However I am a bit worried about making the suggestion of an autosolo at MGLive more official simply because it may detract from the Calicup? Would potential autotest entrants not bother and simply enter the auto solo?
Bob Turbo Midget England

hi Bob,

i bought one of Dave farrah's old cars. it even came with toyota engine and gearbox ready to fit. i restored it back to its former glory (all midget parts). I know there where a lot of fast drivers over the years, think of some of the greats from ulster then too, Ken irwin for example, now in his 70's and still able to win a national autotest! good times. the glory days can be restored again. I would love to see more people watching the autotests and then if they took the notion, could enter the autosolo for fun later in the day. I dont think it would affect the cali-cup negatively in the slightest. all of us are still going to be there and if it meant that a few people gave the auto-solo a go and then next year were out for the cali-cup. that would be great!

i, like so many entusiasts want everybody to come have as much fun as we do when we are driving our cars and having a bit of banter between the tests. its great to see mg's being driven with a bit of flury!! thats the only reason they ever existed, was to be raced by the working man/woman and enjoyed by all onlookers. people need to understand that they too can start at auto-testing and not be embarrassed about being slower than the top people. We are all friendly folks and will help beginners find their way, or improve their cars. I would love to see the teams re-appear like they used too. if each centre can introduce one person to the cali-cup this year then we will have a lot more people taking part. one more person is not that hard to ask and get to silverstone!

moving onto the tour of Lincs, that would be mega if they brought it back. i would certainly be there as my dad took part in it and still remembers the tests vividly! I had so much fun with you guys at the autosolo that several of us are thinking of coming back this year again.

Will
WDT Corry

Nice post Will and I am in unison with you so great and see you soon.

Guess what arrived at my house today? :)

Yep my Willwood!!! Nice bit of kit, thanks for the lead Ian.
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Bob, good luck with the Wilwood, please keep us updated with the progress.
Ian
Ian Webb '73 GAN5

This thread was discussed between 09/12/2011 and 05/01/2012

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