British-Cars.org

Welcome to the DMR Site for British Car Information.

Recommendations

Parts

MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG Midget and Sprite General - Body numbers

I have just found a number clearly stamped on top of the driver's footwell, just ahead of the bulkhead. I think I was aware that the body shells sometimes (or always?) had a number there but had never noticed it before.
The number on mine is 46800
The VIN number is AN5 / 46802
So 2 digit difference, is that what one might expect?

To further add confusion, the metal tag screwed to the n/side door pillar is BAE 46604.

What does it all mean?
Guy

Hi Guy,
I've seen those numbers stamped on the bulkhead before too when I've stripped the paint off the shells. I don't know what it relates to. I have tried to trace the registration number of a Midget before with the number on the door pillar. I was told you need a British Heritage check done and from there you could get the reg. It involves buying the certificate plus an extra search of their records. Costs approx £80. From there you could apply for a log book.
Neil
Neil K

Neil, Thanks.
I have the Heritage Certificate, and I also have a V5. What I am not certain of is if the reg. number is as originally issued. The V5 says First registered 01 06 1980 (?) Maybe that implies a re-allocation of a number? But it also has the note "Declared manufactured 1961" (which is incorrect as the actual manufacture was Sept 1960)

The Heritage Certificate has the same AN5/46802 number and records the BAE tag number off the door pillar - both numbers from their records, so these tally with the numbers on the shell and the VIN with my V5. It also shows the reg number but only because I gave it to them. I don't believe the Heritage Certificate normally states the reg number as it would not be on their records at the time of the factory despatch. Its quite difficult to be sure that some of the records aren't just circular arguments, if you see what I mean.

I wonder what the car was doing for the missing 20 years, 1960 to 1980 !

They do have the delivery destination garage as a place in York, which tallies with the location for the issued registration that I have so I rather suspect it is the original.
Guy

Sorry Guy, you are correct, I mistakenly said I could get the reg no. when in fact it was the chassis no. I could get fromm the Heritage Cert and thence to DVLA for a log book. DVLA didn't need the reg no in the application but could do it with the chassis no.
Incidentally on my Frogeye, having obtained the Heritage Certificate, I found the place the car was first sold from, wrote a letter to the local press and was reunited with the original owner from 1958! Awesome result. This was on the Isle of Wight.
Neil K

That's interesting! Makes a good story too! I have the name of the garage that mine was first delivered to as Castle Garage, York. However, looking on the internet it seems that Castle Garage is now demolished and the site of an archaeological excavation, so unless the archaeologists find any service record sheets from 1961 I don't imagine I will get any information from that direction!
Guy

oooh I dunno, Mark Boldry's family are from York, I expect they salvaged them ;-)
David Smith

Guy,
unless I'm misunderstading again there was posts about this in another very recent (active?) thread (on here I think(?)) where a chap said about a Sprite if the numbers are with 500 of each other that's OK

(as the numbers were pre-allocated and stamped on the body)

your chassis number is (AN5) 46802

whereas your body number is (BAE) 46604

your chassis number pre-stamped (out by 2) on your footwell

if I find the thread I'll link to it later
Nigel Atkins

Any idea when my body was made? The number is a lot lower but perhaps for export they had a different series?

That car was first regsitered in 69 but I believe it was built late 68.

Greg H

Greg,
I think to get as close as you can to the level of accuracy you want you might need to cough up for the information from BMIHT - http://www.heritage-motor-centre.co.uk/exhibitions/archive-services/

You could send an email to check their records will cover Aus cars

or want for replies from those nearer you :)
Nigel Atkins

I've done just that but I believe the cars arrived in Aus in knocked down form and where built from whatever bits where available at the time so I'd be surprised if accurate records exist. I'm more curious as to when the body was made.
Greg H

Guy,

The Body Numbers on the floor of the passenger side footwell (USA), and the Vin Tag match on our car. The metal tag screwed into the drivers side (USA) door pillar is completely different. More over, this number does not match, or appear in any of the original documentation. Our car is a PED Personalal Export Department car sold through University Motors, London.

Regards,

Larry C.
Larry C '69 Midget

Greg,
if you mean you've already sent an email sorry I forgot, if not must be worth just asking

I thought they were CKD(?) which is why I put as close as

after my chassis badge confusion on Aus cars I'll just put what's in Terry Horler's excellent book but we all know there are errors and confusion on production change points on chassis/body/engine numbersin it and more in other publications

from Original Sprite & Midget The Restorer’s Guide by Terry Horler –
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1906133336

page 112, Jan '69, HAN9-79236, GAN4-67989, First cars built in 1969


Nigel Atkins

Larry - USA cars had the chassis number stamped into the floorpan (as you describe), this is not the body number as described by Greg on the Aussie cars which is in a completely different place, see his pic. My understanding of the Body number is a tag screwed inside the n/s door hinge post, this was an identifying number affixed by Pressed Steel Fisher at the production plant in Swindon before the shells were transported to Abingdon for assembly.
David Smith

Greg, not much help but on UK cars in 1969 one expects the body number to be 06xxxx and prefixed either ABL or GBE.
David Smith

David,

Understood, the body number from Pressed Steel is on a small plate fixed to the drivers side (USA) door pillar by the hinge (GUN 0051XXX). What we have stamped into the passenger side (USA) floor pan, and on an aluminum tag fixed to the frame below the carberators is the Serial/Car number (GAN4.U. 688XX G). This matches the manufacturer's Statement of Origin, Serial Number that we have from Longbridge.

Longbridge? Our car is a Personal Export Department (PED) purchased new at University Motors, London. We still have all of the documentation for the car, every transaction including the salesman's business card. We also have the 'original' Body Production Card (attached) from Abingdon that I found under the passengers seat many years ago. Notice the original UK number plate "PON307G" hand written near the bottom of the form.

Regards,

Larry C.

Larry C '69 Midget

Greg, what's the VIN on your car? Mine is YGN41187, it's registered as a '70 model, but most of the features appear to be earlier. However I've read that the Australian cars came out from the UK in just 2 batches, late '67 and early '70 if I recall correctly. My car looks identical to yours, has the early grill, fat bumpers, 4.2diff, no-headrest seats etc.

EDIT: Just found this page here on the Sprite Club website: http://www.spriteclub.com/spridgets.php It says the first batch of Midgets, assembled up until early 1970, were equivalent to Sep/Oct '67 cars.
Andrew F

Guy.

The stamped number on the top of the footwell WILL be only a few numbers apart from the 'chassis number' so I think all is correct for you.

Castle Garage in York finished years ago, we had both Parishs Garage and Forsealias Garage both as British Leyland agents and possible BMC.

If your car was registered in York, it is likely to have a DN or a VY letter sequence.

Hope this snippet helps.. :-)

Mark.
M T Boldry

Nigel,
BMIHT informed me they only have UK production records.

Andrew,
Very helpful I had visited the website before and probably seen it but had forgotten. So that's why we have none of the subtle changes that went through the models. So I have a '67 then. It confuses the suppliers who often think for a '69 I should have something different to what I've asked for.

VIN: YGAN4 922

A couple of questions:
1. Does yours have a vert flow radiator?
2. Does it have a heater?
3. Does it have the baffle plates that go alongside the radiator or just the 'L' brackets? I believe on Aus cars with no heater they weren't fitted but not 100% sure of that yet.
4. Did the battery earth connect onto the body next to the compliance plate?
5. Alternator?
Greg H

Hi Mark,
Yes, I am happy enough with my numbers. The one I was less sure of was the registration number as the V5 lists it as first registered in 1980 -which is clearly wrong. But there is a possibility that it was re-registered at that time and issued with a new number.
However the Heritage certificate records original delivery to Cornelius Parish Ltd, Kingston upon Hull, and then 6 months later to Castle Garage in York. The reg is XDN so is either the original York allocation, or they allocated a year AND location specific one if/when it was re-registered in 1980. I rather think it is the correct original one from 1960. I have the ownership history since 1984 but a dragon void prior to that.
Guy

Further to David's post my early '69 midget's body number has an extra digit; it is GBE 106XXXX. On the Heritage Certificate this is referred to as just 6xxxx. i.e. the first two digits are omitted.

Hope this helps.
Ray Rowsell

all very interesting
I have the original body and chassis plates on my '66 [confirmed on the heritage certificate]. Chassis is
G-AN4/52692 and body is GBE/52602

close [but no cigar!]

did he just pick up the wrong punch I wonder??
David Cox

My heritage certificate, issued in 2001, gives a chassis number c6500 higher than the body number. Under "other information" it gives the issuing authority for the original registration number as well as that for the current registration number. This may be due to the car, for the first part of its life immediately after inital registration, being registered on MG3700. I wish it still had that number plate
Ray Rowsell

Greg,
I thought BMIHT might only records for UK but it as costs nothing to ask and it’s a reliable source of information it was best to check

Andrew’s bit explains it all - >>Just found this page here on the Sprite Club website: http://www.spriteclub.com/spridgets.php
It says the first batch of Midgets, assembled up until early 1970, were equivalent to Sep/Oct '67 cars

David,
I saw elsewhere that someone said that if the numbers were within 500 then that was OK because of how things operated at production

Doesn’t explain Ray’s though
Nigel Atkins

Perhaps it was because there was a missing batch of bodies that went to Aus so the body and chassis numbers got out of sync? On my '61 car the body and chassis numbers are just 2 out. I posted my original question as I thought this was odd but clearly most seem to have a much bigger discrepancy than this!
Guy

Guy

It is possible that your car details were not added to DVLA's computer until 1980 and that the existing 'continuation' logbook did not show original date of registration.
Dave O'Neill2

Yes Dave, That is certainly a possibility. The V5 does have a note printed on the front which says
"Was registered and/or used. Declared manufactured 1961."
But then inside it says "Date of first registration 01 06 1980"
Guy

Greg,

Before I answer, you should note that my car has been either fully or partially rebuilt at least twice before I owned it (and again rebuilt while in my possession), so I cannot guarantee what is fitted is original. However the car did seem very original in its specification when I got a hold of it - the engine for example, while wearing several different coats of paint, had never been rebuilt, the original air filters and exhaust were fitted and someone had taken care to replace all the original stickers with reproductions after respraying the engine bay. It's just that there were clear signs of bodywork from at least two different periods (and the car needed a little bodywork again!), so the car is not an all-original survivor by any means. It's not so standard now, but still not dramatically changed other than modifying the engine and suspension for increased performance, and fitting a 5 speed gearbox. The parts you are interested in were just refurbished and refitted in my rebuild.

1. Does yours have a vert flow radiator?
No, cross flow.

2. Does it have a heater?
No, just a fresh air box. It is the older rectangular style. I actually have the original trunking for it to go down to the front of the car, but it is cracked in several places so not currently fitted. No fan (never fitted I believe, the trunking is shaped to connect directly to the box).

3. Does it have the baffle plates that go alongside the radiator or just the 'L' brackets? I believe on Aus cars with no heater they weren't fitted but not 100% sure of that yet.
Yes, it does have the baffle plates.

4. Did the battery earth connect onto the body next to the compliance plate?
Ahh... My car does not have a compliance plate fitted (I'm not sure where they're fitted on Aus cars?), but the battery earth is bolted to the firewall. I definitely can't guarantee this is original given the history of the car.

5. Alternator?
Yes, my car has a Lucas alternator fitted. I expect this is original, but couldn't guarantee it. No clues in the wiring as my car has had a new loom put through it before I bought it.

This picture should show most of the details you asked about. Unfortunately I can't find any decent pictures right now from before I rebuilt it (when engine was standard colour, dual SU's with stock air filters, original type engine bay stickers fitted, etc...). I'll admit I'm not a stickler for originality (while I have plenty of respect for concours cars) and rebuilt the car the way I wanted it instead.

Hope it helps anyway!

Andrew F

Thanks Andrew. Similar. I was hoping you had the vert flow rad as I was wondering about the baffles. Although the Sprite Club Aus states "up to 1970 car were built as per 1967" it's a bit of a general statement because my car shows the 67 batch cars weren't all the same and they must have just kept using the parts they had until they ran out. We've got bitsa's. Although my car has an alt I've got the early uncommon type with external reg. Your alt is the later Lucas common on most English cars in Aus of the early 70's and quite a bit better.

The id plate is on the firewall just to the left of the wiper hole.

I'm not going for concourse or a show car just wanting to get it back close to original. I think I've got enough now to keep me happy.

A bit warmer up where you are then with your shorts and thongs on. The English may be wondering how I can see your thong? I can't. I'm talking about the Flip Flops. :)

Greg H

For those of you wishing to see some semblance of order out of these 'chassis' numbers, you need to remember that these cars were first manufactured by "BMC" (bless their cotton socks!).

All that was needed was for an 'Apprentice', (if you're over 45 you'll know what one of those was!),to keep a log and make sure all the data plates/stampings were correct at the end of the line.

I have a '58 Frogeye, chassis AN5/3331,body BAE/3376, footwell stamping 3000. You can make your own mind up about how that makes any sense whatsoever!

If you really want to get led round the houses with chassis, and numbers built,then Enzo, in his early years, and also Ferruccio in the 60's are light years in front of BMC and their descendants. I once spoke to an informed Italian regarding gaps in information I was being given and he coughed and muttered these immortal words under his breath, "Tax man! and/or FIA" If true, then they were doing it for a reason, in BMC's case it looks to be incompetence

Peter
PJ HOBSON

Greg,

Sorry for the slow response. Yes, that is where my battery earth is connected. It is interesting the similarities and differences between the cars. As you say, it seems that while most of the basics came from the early cars, various details were made as running changes during production. In fact it seems this is what the Sprite Club page alludes to as well.

The weather here has been very changeable the last couple of months, a beautiful 30+ degree day followed by a wet rainy one. I actually took that picture on the first of November, the car has been partially dismantled since early December. It's nearly back together, but I have spent most of January away from home for work and haven't been in the garage more than 5 minutes since just before Christmas.

Cheers,

Andrew.
Andrew F

This thread was discussed between 10/01/2012 and 19/01/2012

MG Midget and Sprite General index

This thread is from the archives. Join this live forum now